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Policies & Practices of Planned Eventing Studbook

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by EventerAJ View Post
    This makes some sense to me. The Studbook should strive to produce Advanced-level horses, not Prelim or Intermediate-level horses. By the very nature of breeding, attempting to make The Very Best horses will always have a lot of "second-best" horses (your 1*/2* horses). It's sort of like upper-end TB race breeding: breed for a Stakes winner, not for a Charles Town claimer. Breeding a stakes-placed mare to the likes of Bernardini will give you a good shot at a stakes horse, but Berni will produce plenty of allowance/claiming performers, too.

    We are fortunate to have a huge base of TB mares here in this country; many Nice ones generally end up paired with dressage/hunter/jumper stallions instead of eventers (it's about the $$, right). And sadly, there aren't many Proven upper level mares in this country to end up back in the eventing gene pool.

    I'm hopeful that this Eventing Studbook will at least create some more incentive and reward breeders who do seek to produce great event horses. Even for the individual 1- or 2-mare breeder, this could give some guidance and direction. For one thing, it might give breeders a place to register an AI-conceived Thoroughbred produced for sport!
    I think you hit the nail on the head regarding where to aim!

    North America, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, and the UK have a potential huge competitive advantage with the TB mare base...but only if the right mares are selected for eventing breeding.

    We hope that in the Pure-Bred Foal Book breeders will register foals sired by stallions such as A Fine Romance, Coconut Grove, etc. and out of super TB mares.
    Morningside Stud
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    • #22
      Very interesting and very much in line with what I want to do.
      www.EquusMagnificus.ca
      Breeding & Sales
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      • Original Poster

        #23
        Originally posted by magicteetango View Post
        Very interested but wary of not pursuing Old/ISR registration in terms of marketability. My mare is full TB and full sister to a *** Eventer so she would qualify. Love the concept and think this is a wonderful initiative.
        Thanks. With a mare like that I hope you get involved!
        Morningside Stud
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        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by EquusMagnificus View Post
          Very interesting and very much in line with what I want to do.
          Then I hope you get involved when we get launch the studbook this spring!
          Morningside Stud
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          • #25
            Originally posted by tom View Post
            Yes, the rider is important. But the horse is the necessary condition, although not the sufficient condition. Riders can always be changed but the horse cannot change its athleticism.

            If you want to be in the YR/JR market I do not think you should be trying to breed one star horses. Your errors most likely be asymmetric, meaning when you fail to produce the 1*/2* you are more likely to produce a failure, rather than a 3* or 4*, in the case of the dressage mare because you are asking her genetic endowment to do something it is not designed to do. Of course she may do it, she may produce 3* and 4* eventers, but that is by luck and not design. This strategy may be appealing to you but it is not a strategy the new studbook will embrace.

            You miss understand my goals with that mare. And NO I do not think it is what your stud books goals are or should be. But the realtiy is that eventers in this country rarely buy youngsters...so that affects my business plans. My goal for that particular mare is to still breed more toward dressage but with sires that will produce more modern and dual ability...so her offspring should still also have a decent jump. So that if I still have her youngster at riding age, it will jump and event some and have more markets available for sale (including probably a YR market). No doubt anything she produces can do a 2*...that just isn't that hard if I've produced a nice athlete. But the primary goal with her is to produce a foal marketable to sell young. Her 2012 youngster sold at 4 months.

            My event bred babies...did not sell. While I have one olympic rider who said he wants my 2012 Grafenstolz colt out of a nice TB mare....he wants me to hold him for him...but of course will not write a check for him until he is undersaddle. Many others I know will not even look until they are undersaddle.

            It is great if you are only breeding once or twice. But I do try and run my small program as a business. So some of my foals have to be marketable to sell young or I will just end up with too many horses (I skipped breeding all my mares but one for 2013). The pure event bred foals are just harder to sell young as most UL riders/owners do not start buying their 3* and 4* prospects until they are 3-5 years old. ETA: They are harder to sell young into an eventing geared home...easier to sell them into a show or dressage home.

            The goal of your stud book is great. But that doesn't make it the best business plan for someone in my area....those are two different things. I have mares and foals who absolutely fit within your guidelines....but I also have one that does not. What will be an issue for me is if I want to deal with more stud books. All my mares are already in at least one (with one in more than one). And interestingly...my event bred babies have done well at their inspections (including the Graf colt who was res. champion and my 2010 filly who was Champ/High score).

            So it is a great idea....and I do want to support it. But I'm more on the fence as I am doing fine with the stud books I've been using. That was why I asked on costs etc.
            Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Jan. 22, 2013, 04:49 PM.
            ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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            • #26
              Purely hypothetically, as I doubt she will be bred again, but what about a *** mare (USEA Mare of the Year) of completely unknown breeding?
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

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              • #27
                Just a few unrelated comments.
                1) I honestly don't think I have ever seen an International (3*/4*) level event horse from a Shagya tail female.
                2) Of top recent horses, Headley Britannia, Opgun Louvo, and Lenamore are TB crosses with the TB on the bottom. I'm sure there are others, but they don't come to mind.
                3) Most of the AA mare lines in eventing are found in the context of SF. Occasionally one finds something like Sarastro, top French event horse sire, who is an AC or SF, not an true AA with nothing but TB or Arab. He's mostly TB and AA with a touch of SF (to unknown) in the sire's tail female. But his son, the (hopefully) amazing eventer, Petrus de la Triballe is pure SF tail female, going back to unknown tail female.
                4) Unless something has changed very recently, the Germans tend to be prejudiced against the TB mare. While most of them are not breeding for eventing, they traditionally (like the Irish) put the TB on top. What you are planning would require a reversal of culture/practice in several Continental countries who have never had a large TB base. NA, Australia, NZ, the UK, Ireland and France have very large and active TB racing, so their TB mare base is also large. Only the Scandinavians of the other countries seem to be relatively open to the thought of the Blood on the bottom.
                5) The Holsteiner dam of the Hong Kong gold medal horse, Marius, was also the dam of a show jumper competed in the US by Laura Chapot. Marius was the only one of her foals who had a TB on top. He was the byproduct of which you speak, since the breeder was probably breeding for a filly to enter his breeding program. One assumes that because she (holsteiner) had produced a more than decent Olympic horse, she'd be eligible even though she was bred for sj, and all of her WB on top foals were sjers.

                I guess what I'm trying to say is that what you are proposing is very much counter to present breeding trends all over Europe; and those trends seem to be increasingly followed in the rest of the world.

                Of course I'm delighted that you believe there is a place in sport horse breeding, even just for eventing, for Blood damlines.
                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                  You miss understand my goals with that mare. And NO I do not think it is what your stud books goals are or should be. But the realtiy is that eventers in this country rarely buy youngsters...so that affects my business plans. My goal for that particular mare is to still breed more toward dressage but with sires that will produce more modern and dual ability...so her offspring should still also have a decent jump. So that if I still have her youngster at riding age, it will jump and event some and have more markets available for sale. No doubt anything she produces can do a 2*...that just isn't that hard if I've produced a nice athlete. But the primary goal with her is to produce a foal marketable to sell young. Her 2012 youngster sold at 4 months.

                  My event bred babies...did not sell. While I have one olympic rider who said he wants my 2012 Grafenstolz colt out of a nice TB mare....he wants me to hold him for him...but of course will not write a check for him until he is undersaddle. Many others I know will not even look until they are undersaddle.

                  It is great if you are only breeding once or twice. But I do try and run my small program as a business. So some of my foals have to be marketable to sell young or I will just end up with too many horses (I skipped breeding all my mares but one for 2013). The pure event bred foals are just harder to sell young as most UL riders/owners do not start buying their 3* and 4* prospects until they are 3-5 years old. ETA: They are harder to sell young into an eventing geared home...easier to sell them into a show or dressage home.

                  The goal of your stud book is great. But that doesn't make it the best business plan for someone in my area....those are two different things. I have mares and foals who absolutely fit within your guidelines....but I also have one that does not. What will be an issue for me is if I want to deal with more stud books. All my mares are already in at least one (with one in more than one). And interestingly...my event bred babies have done well at their inspections (including the Graf colt who was res. champion and my 2010 filly who was Champ/High score).

                  So it is a great idea....and I do want to support it. But I'm more on the fence as I am doing fine with the stud books I've been using. That was why I asked on costs etc.
                  Yes, the market for eventing horses is small; the market for foals, yearlings, and 2-year-old eventing prospects is very very small. That is reality and it is not going to change. And those of us, and I include you, who want to breed eventing horses have to deal with this reality.

                  I am not going to encourage people who are not serious and dedicated eventing breeders to switch from breeding showjumpers or dressage horses. We are not looking for converts. We are looking for the breeder who is already doing it, doing it with success -- in sport--, and finds attractive the idea of breeding wiith like-minded people in a studbook that understands the needs of the sport and does not limit their choices to predominantly showjumping and dressage sires.

                  Once we have the costs figured out we will let you know.
                  Morningside Stud
                  http://www.morningside-stud.com
                  http://twitter.com/MorningsideStud
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                  • Original Poster

                    #29
                    Originally posted by Janet View Post
                    Purely hypothetically, as I doubt she will be bred again, but what about a *** mare (USEA Mare of the Year) of completely unknown breeding?
                    We recently changed the proposed rules to allow this type of mare.
                    Morningside Stud
                    http://www.morningside-stud.com
                    http://twitter.com/MorningsideStud
                    http://www.facebook.com/MorningsideStud

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                      Just a few unrelated comments.
                      1) I honestly don't think I have ever seen an International (3*/4*) level event horse from a Shagya tail female.
                      2) Of top recent horses, Headley Britannia, Opgun Louvo, and Lenamore are TB crosses with the TB on the bottom. I'm sure there are others, but they don't come to mind.
                      3) Most of the AA mare lines in eventing are found in the context of SF. Occasionally one finds something like Sarastro, top French event horse sire, who is an AC or SF, not an true AA with nothing but TB or Arab. He's mostly TB and AA with a touch of SF (to unknown) in the sire's tail female. But his son, the (hopefully) amazing eventer, Petrus de la Triballe is pure SF tail female, going back to unknown tail female.
                      4) Unless something has changed very recently, the Germans tend to be prejudiced against the TB mare. While most of them are not breeding for eventing, they traditionally (like the Irish) put the TB on top. What you are planning would require a reversal of culture/practice in several Continental countries who have never had a large TB base. NA, Australia, NZ, the UK, Ireland and France have very large and active TB racing, so their TB mare base is also large. Only the Scandinavians of the other countries seem to be relatively open to the thought of the Blood on the bottom.
                      5) The Holsteiner dam of the Hong Kong gold medal horse, Marius, was also the dam of a show jumper competed in the US by Laura Chapot. Marius was the only one of her foals who had a TB on top. He was the byproduct of which you speak, since the breeder was probably breeding for a filly to enter his breeding program. One assumes that because she (holsteiner) had produced a more than decent Olympic horse, she'd be eligible even though she was bred for sj, and all of her WB on top foals were sjers.

                      I guess what I'm trying to say is that what you are proposing is very much counter to present breeding trends all over Europe; and those trends seem to be increasingly followed in the rest of the world.

                      Of course I'm delighted that you believe there is a place in sport horse breeding, even just for eventing, for Blood damlines.
                      1. We believe Shagyas have a lot to offer sport horse breeding. We mostly see them in showjumping and endurance. They have many of the "blood" traits we want to see in damlines.

                      2. Add Windfall to your list.

                      3. -

                      4. As I said earlier, we are not looking for converts...just successful eventing breeders.

                      5. I own a half-sister of Marius. That mare, and her 2012 filly by Casall la Silla, would be eligible to produce foals for the eventing studbook because the damline has produced an Olympic eventing champion. Would I use these two in my eventing breeding program? Maybe, but probably not.

                      Yes, what I am proposing is counter to the norms in Europe. But Europe is the land of the "accidental eventing horse". We want to intentionally breed top-level eventers, and blood is needed for that. We want the blood traits to be consolidated in the damline, that's why we have the emphasis on TB/AA/ShA damlines.
                      Morningside Stud
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                      • #31
                        Originally Posted by Janet
                        Purely hypothetically, as I doubt she will be bred again, but what about a *** mare (USEA Mare of the Year) of completely unknown breeding?
                        Originally posted by tom View Post
                        We recently changed the proposed rules to allow this type of mare.
                        OK, what about her daughter, currently competing Prelim, by an Anglo Arab sire with Eventing credentials?
                        Janet

                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          Originally posted by Janet View Post
                          OK, what about her daughter, currently competing Prelim, by an Anglo Arab sire with Eventing credentials?
                          Yes, her daughter is also eligible to produce foals for the studbook because she descends from a damline that has produced a 3* eventer. The fact that the daughter is by a AA "with eventing credentials" is what we would want to see -- right kind of blood added.
                          Morningside Stud
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                          • #33
                            2) Of top recent horses, Headley Britannia, Opgun Louvo, and Lenamore are TB crosses with the TB on the bottom. I'm sure there are others, but they don't come to mind.
                            Tom already added to this. Also, the Butt horses have many generations of pure TB on the damside, that Hanoverian "root" is very far back and hence, strongly diluted.

                            4) Unless something has changed very recently, the Germans tend to be prejudiced against the TB mare.
                            That is not correct. YOu have to define which bokk or registry your talking about. The impact of TB (and Shagya) dams on the Trakehner breed is well documented and I'll spare the readers a repeat. There are numerous families founded by blood mares, and most have produced upper level sport horses in all disciplines.

                            Regarding Shagya blood - it's rare, and harder to find. It has worked well for international eventing when added on top via Bajar ShA (up to Olympic level).
                            www.trakehners-international.com
                            www.fontana-syndikat.de

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                            • #34
                              Quick question from the back about dam lines.

                              We are talking about the very bottom line in a pedigree? So if a mare is a Trakehner tracing back to ... 1800 say, but every stallion in the bottom half of the pedigree is TB or OX, then that still doesn't make her eligible, yes? because she herself isn't carrying the maternal DNA mitochondria? Or am I not really understanding what dam line means?
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                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Originally posted by Molly Malone View Post
                                Quick question from the back about dam lines.

                                We are talking about the very bottom line in a pedigree? So if a mare is a Trakehner tracing back to ... 1800 say, but every stallion in the bottom half of the pedigree is TB or OX, then that still doesn't make her eligible, yes? because she herself isn't carrying the maternal DNA mitochondria? Or am I not really understanding what dam line means?

                                A damline is the dam, her dam, her dam, her dam, etc. all the way back to the first recorded mare in that chain. We are basing the studbook on damlines that go back to a TB, AA, or ShA mare.

                                However, a Trakehner mare (and more generally, a warmblood mare) will be eligible to produce foals for the eventing studbook if she descends from a non-TB/AA/ShA damline that has produced 3* or 4* eventers.

                                So we will be willing to register foals out of mares that do not have TB/AA/ShA damlines IF those damlines have produced 3* or 4* eventers.

                                There will be requirements to use TB/AA/ShA stallions or "half-bred" stallions on these warmblood mares that do not have a lot of "blood" up close (and on mares that descend from a TB/AA/ShA damline but the first "pure" TB/AA/ShA mare is far back in the pedigree).
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                                • #36
                                  Thanks - I thought that was what was meant but wanted to make sure
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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    You are welcome!
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