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What the new USHJA Young jumper task force means for breeders?

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  • #21
    At most smaller "A" shows the young jumper classes are on the first day. It's crazy, even at the highest level international shows, there are warmup classes. I think to schedule these classes on the first day of horse shows is a sign of total lack of horsemanship. The USHJA should require horse show managers to addrerss this problem.

    Originally posted by HyperionStudLLC View Post
    USHJA has recently put together a new task force for young jumpers in NA. I am on the committee and would like to have some input from breeders as to how this could possibly benefit you as a breeder or not?

    If we could create a better system for our young horses to develop in, would it inspire breeders in some way? If so, how?

    There is a lack of culture here that the Europeans have, but if our outlets for the horses we breed are better, could we build a stronger foundation for the sport?

    Would love to hear from you guys, so I can bring it to the task force.

    Cheers
    Andras
    http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
    http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
      Every competitor in a USEF Young Jumper class knows EXACTLY what the course conditions and level of difficulty will be at each show depending on season.
      I disagree with this. The courses are a total crap shoot show to show depending on who the course designer is. The problem isn't the triple combinations and other factors described in the rules, it's the complexity between the fences and of the course as a whole. One show 2 years ago had a one stride then a bending 5 1/2 stride line to a fence set at a 90 degree angle in the center of the ring in the 5yo and 6yo class. Let me tell you how many problems that caused with the babies (there were many complaints at that show to the point that a new course designer was brought in last year). And I'll mention again the 4 to a 1 to a bending 3....that's not "simple" in any context! To that point, I really like viney's idea of pre-set courses, I just think it would have to be something more flexible than that. Maybe it's education about setting an easy baby course combined with a rule about when the baby classes are run to alleviate the pressure to keep as much the same as possible? Because the fact of the matter is that the shows are putting the YJC classes with the corresponding heights to get through the day faster and conserve resources, and I think *that's* what's causing many of the problems. The course designer who set the 1 to the 90-degree-angle 5 1/2 expressed surprise when confronted about the baby-unfriendly course and commented that he *had* set it easier than the open class. The comparison was flawed, though, because the course had been a bear for the open classes with zero clear rounds. Perhaps if he had set courses at 8am for the babies and then segued into open classes it would have been a better way to compare classes because you'd be adding complexity to simple rather than trying to simplify complexity with no standard to start from.

      But I will also concede that based on your estimates, I may not in a position to dictate what gets done. My horses (big show horses and baby) made it out 7 times last year, putting me on the "light" side of showing. So perhaps there's a different perspective from someone at one of the big barns who spends the winter in FL or CA and the summer back home.

      But the point about "is it a low level class to showcase young stock or for producing GP jumpers" is a moot point. I use these classes to develop my own horses for the GP ring. That does not mean that they should be jumping incredibly difficult and complex courses at ages 4 and 5 (and face it, most horses showing as 5yo are 4 for a large part of the year). I've said it before and I'll say again that 6yos should be close to the open classes and 7yo should absolutely be as complex as open classes. But there have to be gradations of the complexity. It's not fair to say "if the 4yo classes are simple it's just going to be about showcasing our youngsters and not preparing them for GPs."
      __________________________________
      Flying F Sport Horses
      Horses in the NW

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
        U

        Also, having a horse jump the same identical course week after week is a poor idea. It introduces a lot of other problems such as the horse anticipating the course.

        A few years ago another group tried to have standard jump components for a specialized class. It became very expensive for show management to maintain just one set of 'standard' jumps. 4-5 sets would be prohibitive and at the least cause an increase in entry fees to meet special needs for these classes.
        the poster did not say have the same identical course week after week--nor did they say have a standard jump set up just for these classes.

        you obviously are in favor of the path the "crowd" is on now, and are not open to seeing "why" it is working in Europe and is NOT working here.

        most of those horses you see jumping around the 6,7 and 8 yr old classes are IMPORTS--I just watched those classes in Wellington a week ago.

        the present approach does not help young horses bred, raised and started here in the States--
        Discipline is the Bridge between Dreams and Accomplishments

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by szipi View Post
          At most smaller "A" shows the young jumper classes are on the first day. It's crazy, even at the highest level international shows, there are warmup classes. I think to schedule these classes on the first day of horse shows is a sign of total lack of horsemanship. The USHJA should require horse show managers to addrerss this problem.
          I'll add my +1 to this comment as well.
          __________________________________
          Flying F Sport Horses
          Horses in the NW

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by showjumpers66 View Post
            I agree with above posters that the young jumper courses need to be suitable for young jumpers. We also need a system that gives a score for ability. The best young jumper isn't necessarily the one that goes around clean with the fastest time. We need a way to recognize and reward talented young horses while encouraging them to be developed appropriately. We also need to encourage that breeders, buyers, trainers, riders, etc. are registering horses and keeping the original papers with the horse. Providing pedigree documentation for entry into a young horse class is key.
            They do have Young Horse Jumper Suitability Championships at the Sacramento International Horse Show.

            http://www.proequest.com/news/2011/1...start-the-ac-0

            The first two rounds are judged. The third round and jump-off are timed.
            Horsezee

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #26
              All of the comments noted, but let's talk about what series or programs that we already have in place in terms of how they do or don't affect your decisions as breeders?

              What would you like to see as a benefit to breeders through young horse development?

              Cheers!
              Hyperion Stud, LLC.
              Europe's Finest, Made in America
              WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
              Standing Elite and Approved Stallions

              Comment


              • #27
                Quick question... At the USHJA annual meeting there was mention of the possibility of adding jumper breeding classes like hunter breeding. Is this proposal part of your committee?

                Comment


                • #28
                  If I was in America breeding and using these classes I'd like to see the following:

                  1) The top 3 American bred at each show getting prizes. Such as free entry to the next show of your choosing as well as stabling. Maybe 2nd and 3rd get just a free entry.

                  2) Age as of January 1st. No it will not mean more people trying to breed early. A 4yo should not be out with 5yo's. One should not push any horse no matter what age.

                  3) Reward the entries with proper papers and ID for American breds only. Such as $20 off each entry. American breds with no papers do not get discounts and are not eligible for the special American bred prizes. Make so people get used to actually using the darn papers. I can't imagine any breeder would have issues with this rule.

                  4) I'm guessing there are year end prizes, but don't know. Also include prizes for the top 3 American breds of the year.

                  5) And most definitely prized for the Breeders of the top 3 American bred horses.


                  As far as getting weird about the courses, it would be a bit difficult running a big show and resetting the course for each age group. Even our qualifiers here are the same courses with the poles raised. The idea is not to ask huge questions but to get the horses jumping confidently. And even if you're not jumping in qualifiers or a series, the set jumps are used for all. The courses here aren't "easy" courses but they're not difficult either. Very inviting but maybe an odd small question. We jumped in a meter course one time and had a triple. It didn't cause any issues for the young horses. In meter classes here you have a mix of young horses learning their trade, riders who are happy to jump a course on the day with an older horse and have no ambition to be the next GP rider, and young riders learning their trade. It's not supposed to ask huge questions of any of those riders and horses. Course designers know this.

                  Age qualifiers for various events take place at regular shows. Normally one ring is for these classes. Again is should be inviting for all horses and yes the only thing that changes is height. Yes there is a difference in the 1.10m and 1.30 m. A horse can make mistakes in a 1.10 and recover. You expect that of younger horses learning their trade. The same mistake at 1.30 could be a disaster. But by the time a horse is jumping 1.30 they should not be making these mistakes. So yes just raising poles on the same course can be an issue.

                  But as for helping breeders, I think within the series you need to encourage the American breds. Properly identified American breds. So perks for these horses are the way to go. All can still jump but make it that bit more special for the Breeders of the American horses.

                  Terri
                  COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                  "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I also forgot to add that 4yo's are also judged over here. A rail will still probably cost but its not about the fastest in finals. Suitability, rideability, ect come into play too.

                    Terri
                    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      There are Young Jumper sanctioned classes held all over the country year round.
                      Also, USEF has 5, 6 and 7/8 year old jumper classes that run at USEF rated shows. These are also held year round, country wide.
                      Yeah, right. 90 maybe in the south - Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, and maybe 2 or 3 in the Mid Atlantic. If you want to put your young horse on a trailer and haul his poor little a$$ all over the east coast and south, yeah, there are lots of classes, otherwise good luck finding enough to make it worthwhile and have a chance at the championships. The young horse classes start in the south in January. They don't start in this area until well after the horses that travel south and well done and already qualified.

                      There's also one I found in New Jersey that doesn't, and has a reputation for, I found out later, not reporting the show results - so the show doesn't count.
                      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                      Now apparently completely invisible!

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Yes, that is the type of thing that is needed. Have they done it since 2011?

                        Originally posted by Horsezee View Post
                        They do have Young Horse Jumper Suitability Championships at the Sacramento International Horse Show.

                        http://www.proequest.com/news/2011/1...start-the-ac-0

                        The first two rounds are judged. The third round and jump-off are timed.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I know that this is not important to most, but we do need a way to get on the same level playing field as Europe. We don't have to mimic them, but we need to have a format that recognizes talent. We will get to the point when we are consistently producing international caliber horses and those horses will be going to other countries in greater numbers. When that happens, they need to have been produced from the highest quality standards in regards to performance testing of the stallions, approval of breeding stock, pedigree verification, etc. While this may not be important in our culture, it is VERY important in other cultures. I would like to see DNA testing and microchips required to help prevent the paper shuffle that is such a problem in our country.

                          The current Young Jumpers program does not recognize the potential talent as they do not offer a score for scope/technique/suitability. Sure, the most talented horse could win, but you could also have a horse win that is scoped out at that level or has a style that while it gets the job done it is not a style that you want to continue in a breeding program. They require pedigree documentation for age verification, but there is no recognition for the breeders of these horses.

                          We have no system of recognizing breeding programs at all. We need a means to track how our mare families are producing. When a breeding program is successful, it needs to be recognized at the national level. The mares need to be recognized. Some of the registries do this for their breeders, but we need to see this recognition on the USEF/National level. It becomes so difficult because of the trends of renaming horses and breeders often lose track of their horses, but if we can start offering incentives for keeping the original paperwork with the horse and completing the paperwork appropriately when applying for a USEF number, then maybe we can start to shift the mentality.

                          Another aspect is that the top riders are not always the best judge of young horses or the experts in young horse development. I understand the appeal of having a "name" participating in a young horse program, but it is far more important to have people who are experts in the field of young horses for the international platform specifically. Don't have dressage judges/handlers for jumper prospect classes. There is a difference between a dressage prospect and a jumper prospect. Also, it is an art handling a horse in a jump chute to present him to the best of his ability. We have access to several experts who could appropriately train handlers such as Janko van de Lageweg who handles for the NA KWPN tour yearly and Harald Hoffmann who is the training director for the stallion test in NA, prepares stallions for keurings, and is a licensed judge in Germany. There are others.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by showjumpers66 View Post
                            I agree with above posters that the young jumper courses need to be suitable for young jumpers. We also need a system that gives a score for ability. The best young jumper isn't necessarily the one that goes around clean with the fastest time. We need a way to recognize and reward talented young horses while encouraging them to be developed appropriately. We also need to encourage that breeders, buyers, trainers, riders, etc. are registering horses and keeping the original papers with the horse. Providing pedigree documentation for entry into a young horse class is key.
                            This is right on Barbara.

                            I think we need to differentiate between what is good for breeders, and what is good for our young stock. Although I think one benefits the other, the way you go about it is different.

                            Classes that are designed to help develope our young horse to become upper level jumpers are not classes designed for low level amateurs. I would also like to second what Kappler said about reducing the winnings so the classes don't fill up with upper level professionals going for the money. A young horse ciruit designed to bring up our young horses/and future professionals properly. Judged events that have optimal times, but the fastest doesn't win. I don't think it should be year end awards, because that only rewards those who show the most. The award should be at the show you compete at. If you want to reward someone at the end of the year, reward the breeders who created them, and specifically those bred in America.

                            Tim
                            Sparling Rock Holsteiners https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...milies/yes.gif
                            www.sparlingrock.com

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Absolutely!!

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                And they need to have enough classes in a reasonable number of areas so that you don't have to pack off to Florida or Mississippi to have a chance to show your promising young jumpers.
                                Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                                Now apparently completely invisible!

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  With the current system, I agree with this. Unfortunately, those classes don't fill except at the big shows and then those horses at shows such as WEF have a huge advantage in the rankings and mileage. The best horse might be in the midwest, but he may have no competition in his classes. The horses on a large circuit can compete weekly while others may have to travel from class to class. When the classes don't fill, the show managers don't want to mess with organization and course changes due to the fact that the class isn't paying for itself. Even if we were to begin with a National class yearly and then progressed to regionals classes, it would be a beginning.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by PNWjumper View Post
                                    Perhaps the easier answer is to pull the YJC classes away from the matching height classes (i.e. no 5yo class run concurrently with the 1.10m Jumper class), which might give the course designer more thought to design a baby-appropriate course. Do it first thing in the morning, and the course designer could make the course more difficult with each age group eventually transitioning into the open classes.
                                    Absolutely agree here!

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by showjumpers66 View Post
                                      Yes, that is the type of thing that is needed. Have they done it since 2011?
                                      Since 2009 at the Sacramento International Show. Prior to that Rudy Leone would offer Young Jumper Suitability Classes at his A horse shows (if I recall correctly).

                                      Here is a link with more details from last year's 2012 show regarding the Young Jumper Suitability Championships along with Rudy's contact information.

                                      http://www.sacramentointernationalho...l_clinics.html

                                      http://leoneequestrians.com/about/contact-us/
                                      Horsezee

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Horsezee View Post

                                        Here is a link with more details from last year's 2012 show regarding the Young Jumper Suitability Championships along with Rudy's contact information.

                                        http://www.sacramentointernationalho...l_clinics.html
                                        It says as of 2012, the format of the Young Jumper Suitability Championships are completely subjective, citing that the horses "will be judged on performance, soundness, ride ability, scope and general suitability and likelihood of becoming a Grand Prix prospect."

                                        I'm in complete agreement with those who pointed out the need for a scoring system in young horse classes. So a question to everyone here: How would you feel about an entirely subjective approach to the YJC classes?

                                        And a question to the OP: Is this even a remote possibility?

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Peeking in on this thread (I am more oriented to dressage breeding), but someone mentioned the large shows such as WEF, etc. And I am wondering - do h/j folks really send youngsters to these types of venues for the season? That seems awfully young - do you not worry about the youngsters getting mentally and physically burned out after spending months on end at such a venue? It seems to me that very few 4 year olds would be mature enough to deal with that kind of lifestyle.

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