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World's First Eventing Studbook

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  • World's First Eventing Studbook

    Eventing horse breeders, riders, owners, journalists, etc. please see the news contained in the lastest report from the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland:

    http://www.irish-warmblood.com/WSIre...SIReport30.pdf


    Morningside Stud
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  • #2
    Very exciting, Tom - well done. I would like to be involved with this in any way possible.
    A Fine Romance. April 1991 - June 2016. Loved forever.

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    • #3
      already sent an email!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Fred View Post
        Very exciting, Tom - well done. I would like to be involved with this in any way possible.
        This reminds me Fred, I saw on FB yesterday that Jackie Mars was the2012 US leading event breeder, I bet her Fredlets helped with that!

        Comment


        • #5
          A great idea, already well thought-out and much overdue. I will watch the development closely. Good luck!!
          www.trakehners-international.com
          www.fontana-syndikat.de

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          • Original Poster

            #6
            Thanks, Gail, Eventingjunkie, and Maren. I will keep you informed.
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            • #7
              What will be the effect on Ireland's native breeds?
              I wasn't always a Smurf
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Renascence View Post
                This reminds me Fred, I saw on FB yesterday that Jackie Mars was the2012 US leading event breeder, I bet her Fredlets helped with that!

                I didn't see that, Holly - I will look - thank you.
                And congratulations to Jacqueline Mars and 'Team Landmark'!
                A Fine Romance. April 1991 - June 2016. Loved forever.

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                  What will be the effect on Ireland's native breeds?
                  Carol, I do not understand your question. Why would a studbook dedicated to breeding 4* and championship eventing horses have any effect on Ireland's native breeds?
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                  • #10
                    Tom, what will be the new studbook's policy on Thoroughbred blood? I know that in the past, you've gone on record as believing that new TB blood was not needed in horses bred for top level show jumping and dressage--was a detriment in fact.

                    It's hard to see how an eventing registry/studbook could avoid TB crosses for the foreseeable future. They and SF blood are what have taken German eventing to the top.
                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      vineyridge, the foundation of the studbook willl be mares and stallions that descend from TB, Anglo-Arab, and Shagya Arab damlines. We are absolutely committed to "blood".

                      In fact the rules for the studbook, which we are in the final stages of developing, will have at least two foal books: one for "pure-bred" foals (whereby both the sire and the dam are TB or AA or ShA) and one for "warmblood" foals (and the warmblood foals will be required to have a high "blood" quotient). One of the goals is to produce TB, AA, and ShA mares and stallions specifically bred for evening that, in turn, will produce top-level eventers and contribute to breeding programs for the other Olympic disciplines by producing, for example, the "right kind" of TBs.

                      An issue we are working on now -- and in fact, struggling with -- is to what extent do we lose our focus on "blood" -- evidenced in part by our requirement that every mare producing foals for the studbook must descend from a TB, AA, or ShA damline so that mares that do not descend from these "blood" damlines, but come from damlines that have produced very good athletes, may be allowed to breed within the studbook. (Note that our requirement is not that the mare must be a TB, AA, or ShA; the mare must DESCEND from a damline that begins with a TB, AA, or ShA. mare.

                      Any advice, guidance, etc. from any interested person would be appreciated on this issue: Do we keep the current proposed rule that every mare breeding within the studbook (and by definition, every foal born into the studbook) must descend from a TB, AA, or ShA damline or do we open it up a bit so that mares closely related through their damlines to 3* or 4* eventing horses will be alllowed to breed within the studbook? The Butts horses on the German Olymic teams in 2008 and 2012 did not descend from TB, AA, or ShA damlines although they are close to 100% TB. Should we let these types of mares into the studbook at the expense of losing our laser-like focus on TB,AA, and ShA damlines?
                      Last edited by tom; Jan. 18, 2013, 11:41 AM.
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                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        A Quick Guide to the Planned Eventing Studbook

                        A Quick Guide to the Planned Eventing Studbook

                        You may be eligible to register your foal if…
                        1) The sire is a TB or AA or ShA and the dam is a TB or AA or ShA. (The foal goes into the Purebred Foal Book.)
                        2) The sire is a half-bred approved by a Recognized warmblood studbook and the dam is a TB, AA, ShA, half-bred, or warmblood mare that descends from a TB, AA, or ShA damline. (The foal goes into the Warmblood Foal Book.)
                        3) The sire is a warmblood stallion approved by a Recognized studbook and the dam is a TB, AA, ShA, half-bred, or warmblood mare that descends from a TB, AA, or ShA damline. (Note that the rules impose addition requirements in cases where both the sire and the dam is a warmblood. See the rules for further information.)
                        4) The sire is a TB, AA, Sh or a half-bred or warmblood stallion approved by a Recognized studbook and the mare is a warmblood that does not descend from a TB, AA, or ShA but does descend from a damline that has produced 3* or 4* CCI or CIC event horses. (The foal may go into the Warmblood Foal Book upon approval by the Breeding Director.)

                        Your stallion may be eligible to sire foals for the studbook if…
                        1) He is a TB, AA, or ShA stallion.
                        2) He is a half-bred stallion approved by a Recognized studbook.
                        3) He is a warmblood stallion approved by a Recognized studbook.
                        4) He was born into the new studbook and later becomes an Approved Stallion.

                        You mare may be eligible to produce foals for the studbook if…
                        1) She is a TB, AA, or ShA mare; or
                        2) She is a warmblood mare that descends from a TB, AA, or ShA damline; or
                        3) She is a warmblood mare that does not descend from a TB, AA, or ShA damline but her damline has produced 3* or 4* CCI or CIC eventing horses (and subject to approval by the Breeding Director).
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                        • #13
                          Tom, I think that these are really interesting plans ... but just to clarify, can I give two examples from my own breeding to see if they both would have qualified to enter the studbook? One is out of an ISH mare (Able Albert XX x Diamond Lad) by the half-blood stallion Amiro Z. The other is out of the same mare by Caretino Glory (Cheenook x Glorieux x Calypso I). Would the second foal have qualified for entry?

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                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by zelensky View Post
                            Tom, I think that these are really interesting plans ... but just to clarify, can I give two examples from my own breeding to see if they both would have qualified to enter the studbook? One is out of an ISH mare (Able Albert XX x Diamond Lad) by the half-blood stallion Amiro Z. The other is out of the same mare by Caretino Glory (Cheenook x Glorieux x Calypso I). Would the second foal have qualified for entry?
                            zelensky,

                            I am assuming this mare does not descend from a TB/AA/ShA damline.

                            Example 1: Probably yes because of the half-bred sire and the TB damsire.

                            Example 2: Maybe but probably not because except for the damsire whatever TB/AA/ShA blood in this foal is quite far back. In fact the first pure-bred ancestor in the sire's pedigree is in his 4th generation -- one AA horse. This is not what we want to see. This foal would be subject to review by the Breeding Director because there is not enough TB/AA/ShA blood in the foal, according to the proposed rules. It would help this foal's case if the sire has produced international eventing horses, and especially upper-level CCI/CIC horses, but even if he has we would probably require a video of the foal to assess his athleticism and even then it is unlikely we would accept the foal. We do not want the foals in the Warmblood Foal Book to be typical showjumping foals so we insist on TB/AA/ShA blood up close. So a breeder with a traditional warmblood mare is going to have to use pure-bred and half-bred stallions to guarantee the foal's admission into the studbook. We do not want the owner of a typical warmblood mare to use a typical warmblood stallion.

                            PLUS if the mare does not descend from a TB/AA/ShA damline that damline has to have produced some 3* or 4* CCI/CIC eventers. So even for Example 1 if the mare and foal do not descend from a TB/AA/ShA damline it will not be eligible unless the damline has produced some 3* or 4* CCI/CIC eventers.

                            Does this help?
                            Last edited by tom; Jan. 18, 2013, 07:01 PM. Reason: clarity
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                            • #15
                              Yes it does indeed - thanks Tom! Keep us posted on developments

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                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Will do. See the last sentence in my repy to you. I just edited it for clarity.
                                Morningside Stud
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                                • #17
                                  I guess my only question would have to do with Irish/British mares in particular.. The Irish have been remarkably successful in eventing by breeding their RID/ISH mares to TB stallions--or vice versa. Those mares are not TB/AA/Shagya on the bottom. In fact, they often are described as breeding unknown because the Irish have never focused on mares. The same could be said for more than a few of the very successful UK event horses. Winsome Adante has some Arab and more than just a bit of TB, but his tail female is not any of the accepted lines--It's half blood back to unknown. Welton Gazelle, dam of Catherston Dazzler and Yarland's Summer Song, both exceptional eventing sires, is unknown ID tail female. High Dolly, dam of Mandiba and High Kingdom, is Irish to unknown tail female but she's at least 75% TB. Mr. Medicott is unknown Irish mares on the bottom except for his dam and granddam. McKinlaigh is ISH top and bottom with sire's sire and dam's sire both TBs, while both tail females are unknown Irish.

                                  I think this could be a major sticking point.

                                  Guess I should ask for a definition of damline.
                                  Last edited by vineyridge; Jan. 18, 2013, 10:29 PM.
                                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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                                  • #18
                                    Viney..I'm with you.

                                    My mare did CCI* with me, she was ISH (7/8 TB, 1/8 ID) but she was never registered or papered. Many eventers didn't when she was born and still don't register their foals with breed registries.

                                    Therefore, when my filly was born by Fleetwater Opposition (Trak) I could register her half Trakehner, but with the damline unknown.

                                    I think the current eligibility will be very restrictive and instead maybe the dam could be included if having competed through any FEI level instead of just 3* or 4*? It seems silly to me to allow the dam to be TB, aa or arab with no performance record but those mares that aren't registered with a performance record are not eligible.... just my 2 cents.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                      I guess my only question would have to do with Irish/British mares in particular.. The Irish have been remarkably successful in eventing by breeding their RID/ISH mares to TB stallions--or vice versa. Those mares are not TB/AA/Shagya on the bottom. In fact, they often are described as breeding unknown because the Irish have never focused on mares. The same could be said for more than a few of the very successful UK event horses. Winsome Adante has some Arab and more than just a bit of TB, but his tail female is not any of the accepted lines--It's half blood back to unknown. Welton Gazelle, dam of Catherston Dazzler and Yarland's Summer Song, both exceptional eventing sires, is unknown ID tail female. High Dolly, dam of Mandiba and High Kingdom, is Irish to unknown tail female but she's at least 75% TB. Mr. Medicott is unknown Irish mares on the bottom except for his dam and granddam. McKinlaigh is ISH top and bottom with sire's sire and dam's sire both TBs, while both tail females are unknown Irish.

                                      I think this could be a major sticking point.

                                      Guess I should ask for a definition of damline.
                                      Defintion of damline: the dam, her dam, her dam, etc. as far back as one can go. At some point in the damline we want a TB/AA/ ShA mare.

                                      We recently amended the proposed rules to deal with the issue you raise: What do we do about mares that are proven producers of 3* or 4* eventers but descend from a damline that is not TB/AA/ShA, such as the the mares that produced the Butts horses, or has a damline that stops a few generations back (like the dam of Winsome Adante). At first our thinking was to exclude these mares but we changed the proposed rules recenly to allow these mares in -- as long as they themselves or their damlines have produced 3* or 4* CCI or CIC eventers.

                                      We do not want mares with unrecorded damlines in which the damline has not produced international eventers. These mares are a dime a dozen in Ireland and the UK and breeding an international eventer from them is like winning the lottery: If a studbook produced 50,000 - 75,000 foals over a 10-year period, such as the Irish Sport Horse Studbook, some of these foals will eventually become top CCI/CIC horses due to the sheer volume of foals produced. We are not in the numbers game.
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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by TSHEventing View Post
                                        Viney..I'm with you.

                                        My mare did CCI* with me, she was ISH (7/8 TB, 1/8 ID) but she was never registered or papered. Many eventers didn't when she was born and still don't register their foals with breed registries.

                                        Therefore, when my filly was born by Fleetwater Opposition (Trak) I could register her half Trakehner, but with the damline unknown.

                                        I think the current eligibility will be very restrictive and instead maybe the dam could be included if having competed through any FEI level instead of just 3* or 4*? It seems silly to me to allow the dam to be TB, aa or arab with no performance record but those mares that aren't registered with a performance record are not eligible.... just my 2 cents.
                                        I take your point about TB mares with no sport performance but we are counting on the serious and dedicated eventing breeders to use the right kind of TB/AA/ShA mare and the right kind of mare that descends from a TB/AA/ShA damline.

                                        We insist on a lot of "blood" and I believe basing the studbook on mares that descend from TB/AA/ShA damlines means that traits associated with "blood" have a higher probability of being consolidated into the mare and her damline. Jumping ability can be added relatively easily; stamina, speed, endurance, courage, a gallop etc. cannot be easily added. That is why a lot of half-bred horses over here in which the sire is a TB and the dam is an ID or ISH with a lot of ID can't do the xc successfully. What is consolidated in many of those damlines is...who knows? But for many it is not athletic traits in general and certainly not "blood" traits in particular.

                                        We are not going to be all things to all people. As with the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland our goal is not to get rich issuing registrations (which can be a very lucrative business). WSI donates all profits to a school in South Africa and this new studbook will donate the profits also to a charity. We have a vision and a theory for what it takes to build a population that will reliably produce international eventers at upper levels. We are willing to be a bit flexible to bring in some mares that do not fulfill the requirements but we are not going to take a mare that is from an undocumented damline unless it has produced international 3* and 4* horses. If your mare was a 4* CCI competitor, maybe. A 1*, no. Sorry.

                                        And in case you think I am unsympathetic, I owned a mare that produced one 3* international eventer and one 1* international eventer for me. (She has also produced two 1 m. showjumpers.) Her damline is not recoded several generations back. I gave her to a friend to breed from. She is not the type of mare that is going to consistently breed excellent athletes and I removed her from my breeding program.
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