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Would you breed to a draft cross?

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  • Would you breed to a draft cross?

    I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on breeding a 2nd generation draft cross? I ran across a nice F1 draft cross stallion, I like his temperament. He seems capable under saddle, a little about my mares. I have a Sandro Hit daughter she is very quirky
    Very sweet mare but can be volatile in a new situation, it doesn't take much to set her off. She has a lovely trot, and OK walk and a decent canter IMO. She does need an improvement on her hind leg but without risking getting a hotter foal. I know there are some of you who are expert breeders. I am looking to breed an athletic quiet prospect for my self. I would like to keep some trot and add readability. Would it be a total waste of time to breed a GOV mare to a draft cross here is video of the stallion I was looking at http://youtu.be/x59XG0-1lnM I think he has a lovely canter, but I am not an expert.

  • #2
    Regarding draft crosses, I am not a breeding expert either, but FIRST I would want to see the horse's pedigree, and photos / videos of its parents (and parent’s parents).

    When dealing with a cross, it is much more a gamble, as they have a more diverse genetic history, and it will be harder to predict what they will throw.

    Now regarding THIS stallion you have linked to, I happen to know the following:

    His breeding is unknown, and his owner has previously LIED and claimed he was an imported polish warmblood with a stolen pedigree
    He has shown very little - in fact “won” two classes, which each had two entries
    Owner and past owner have a history of misrepresentations.

    You can read more here:

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...olish+stallion

    He is caught up in the whole mess. Was owned by Tye Dye – “new” owner bought him and LIED about his breeding.

    I would NOT recommend breeding to a draft cross with unknown parentage.
    APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      I was not aware of the stallions history here on COTH. I board a horse at the same barn he is kept at. I do get to see him working almost every day, and so far the owner has been honest about his pedigree. Or lack there of, I am just looking for some help assessing his general gaits. I had rotten luck last year with frozen semen last year and am a bit gun shy about reaching back this year with this mare.

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      • #4
        I would not.
        McDowell Racing Stables

        Home Away From Home

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        • #5
          I didn't read the linked thread, but IMO if a horse is 1/2 TB 1/2Draft then breeding to a full TB tends to produce a nice sporthorse type.

          I would hesitate to breed it to something other than a TB or a draft because then the genetic roulette spins wilder and there is less consistency in what the end result will be.

          I think that you could find a GOV approved stallion that would meet your requirements and be a much safer bet.
          www.debracysporthorses.com
          Home of Sea Accounts xx
          AHS/HV, ATA, GOV, RPSI, JC, AQHA, APHA, APtHA
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          • #6
            Regarding the flaws you state about your mare, I do not see this particular stallion being able to improve on them at all! Sorry, just being honest There ARE warmblood stallions out there who are super quiet with a fabulous temperament. That being said, if your mare has that many quirks and things you want to fix, I probably wouldn't breed her and would look for a nice youngster to buy instead. In the end, you will end up spending MORE money on breeding your mare, and at the end of the day, there is no guarantee you will get what you want out of her foal. Buying a youngster though, you can likely find exactly what you are looking for, and you cannot beat the prices right now due to the economy!

            And as far as the history on the buckskin stallion and the owners, as posted on the COTH BB....run!
            www.DaventryEquestrian.com
            Home of Oldenburg, Westphalian & RPSI approved pony stallion Goldhills Brandysnap
            Also home to Daventry Equine Appraisals & Equine Expert Witness www.EquineAppraisers.com

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            • #7
              I suspect there are pedigreed warmblood stallions with a track record for improving and stamping temperment that would be a much better match.

              The problem i have seen with draft crosses is that you can get the nonammie friendly brain you were trying to breed-out but now packaged in a powerful draft body (all 1600 pounds). You could end up with a duplicate of your mare's brain --in a bigger body.

              Comment


              • #8
                I agree with Cyriz's mom. The trouble with breeding a draft/TB stallion to a warmblood mare is that there are WAY too many genetic variables at play to allow you to have the slightest idea of what to expect in the foal.

                Could you get something nice? Well, yeah. But the odds are much higher that you'd get a mismash of genes that would leave you with something worse than either parent. Not worth the risk.

                Look around. There are some VERY nice stallions out there that have been tested and approved and that would give you what you want. Heck, right now there is even a great stallion breeding auction going on to benefit the Marin County, CA, SPCA. You could get a HECK of a deal. Go to http://www.legup-auction.org/main to check it out.
                Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by cyriz's mom View Post
                  I didn't read the linked thread, but IMO if a horse is 1/2 TB 1/2Draft then breeding to a full TB tends to produce a nice sporthorse type.

                  I would hesitate to breed it to something other than a TB or a draft because then the genetic roulette spins wilder and there is less consistency in what the end result will be.

                  I think that you could find a GOV approved stallion that would meet your requirements and be a much safer bet.
                  Agreed, and even then, the normal path is to put the blood on top, breeding half-bred or 3/4 bred mares back to a TB.
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                  • #10
                    That's the trouble with hybrids. In each succeeding generation from the start, the potential for odd phenotypes increases when you breed hybrids to hybrids. The only way to make hybrid breeding work to reach a single goal is to cull ruthlessly. I once saw a chart showing the color possibilities in corn when a red was crossed with a blue. By the third generation, the possible outcomes were myriad. It takes multiple generations to create a true breeding hybrid.

                    In this case, say the stallion is half draft and half TB. Your GOV mare will be part TB and part all purpose medium horse. You just couldn't predict which draft characteristics, which TB characteristics, and which all purpose characteristics the foal will inherit. That's one of the reasons why draft blood is not allowed in most registries. They are working toward predictability It's also one reason why one rule for a good outcome seems to be "Breed like to like." Omare has pointed out what you might get.

                    Gaits, talents, basic temperament, and conformation are all inherited in large part. Just not necessarily predictable.

                    Second the "look at the Marin County Humane Society Auction". There are some darned fine stallions, some of whom are noted for their equable temperaments.
                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Thank you all for your reply's I have to admit I have always been fascinated by the draft crosses. I wish there was a magical stallion out there who could produce a S.H. trot and a Quarterback canter. Funny thing I was about to book this mare to Redwine when I happened upon this forum. I thought perhaps the R line would be a good cross.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree with the others and look for a WB that is known for passing on a stellar temperament. If you really want more body, with great mind and athletic, I would look to an Irish Draught like Steeped in Luck who is showing I1 and has crossed nicely with WB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZofYIZZOFTI
                        or this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=KHgbYSKQqQ0#!
                        Epona Farm
                        Irish Draughts and Irish Draught Sport horses

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                        • #13
                          Not commenting on the particular stallion but on draft cross/wb breeding.

                          I have had some fabulous results with draft cross breeding. My 18hh dressage horse is by a swedish wb stallion out of a draft cross mare

                          Here is his pic - december - doing Level 2 for the first time at 5 yrs old and he is 18hh
                          http://www.prospectequinefarms.com/i...12-10-28-8.JPG


                          I also bred him to a trak/tb mare and have two incredible youngsters.

                          Here is the yearling colt
                          http://www.prospectequinefarms.com/i...t/IMG_4042.JPG


                          And the two yr old Filly.
                          http://www.prospectequinefarms.com/i...03-17-12-3.JPG

                          please don't think that just because you breed to a draft cross you are going to get a calm horse - you will be lucky if you do. The filly is a firecracker, my big guy has his moments and the colt is a very cool cucumber. So I would say it's 50-50

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                          • #14
                            We have a mare by Freedom Z - now that is a fabulous temperment

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by cyriz's mom View Post
                              I didn't read the linked thread, but IMO if a horse is 1/2 TB 1/2Draft then breeding to a full TB tends to produce a nice sporthorse type.
                              The horse's first owner claimed that this was the breeding:

                              According to Tye Dye, it was:

                              Sire: Quincy Cody Jr. (APHA) x Dam: Frosty (Percheron x Belgian)

                              there are post on that thread from "sporthorsesrus" where she admits to her lies.
                              APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by foxyhorse View Post
                                Thank you all for your reply's I have to admit I have always been fascinated by the draft crosses. I wish there was a magical stallion out there who could produce a S.H. trot and a Quarterback canter. Funny thing I was about to book this mare to Redwine when I happened upon this forum. I thought perhaps the R line would be a good cross.
                                UB40 comes to mind for a really nice canter.

                                ijslemeer ikopono (i hope i spelled that right lol) comes to mind for cooling the temperament while maintaining nice gaits. He's a gelderlander.
                                http://www.liolomasdutchwarmbloods.c...20Ikepono.html

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Just throwing this out there.... if you want to breed, check out the online stallion auction going on right now to benefit the Gray Fox Farms horses.

                                  http://www.leg-up.org/marin-county-f...tion-page.html

                                  I also think that Concerto Grosso would probably produce a nice quiet but athletic ammy friendly horse, and his semen is excellent!
                                  http://www.virginiafieldhunters.com/...%20Grosso.html

                                  I would not do business with any stallion owner who had lied about her horse's pedigree in the past or who had misrepresented her stallion as RPSI approved. If you're feeling bored, pour yourself a glass of wine and read the train wreck that ensued:
                                  http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...rt+horses+r+us
                                  The rebel in the grey shirt

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    I love Ijslemeer Ikopono and would love to breed to him! I have seem 3 very nice quiet ammy friendly horses all sired by him. I have only experienced one UB40 get and he was a delight also. I love dutch horses, but am unfamiliar with their policy on approving mares from other registries.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      http://kwpn-na.org/display/files/Reg...Chart_2012.pdf

                                      I think if your mare is fully registered in the studbook of an "erkend" registry, the resulting foal will be foalbook with full passport/branding

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Sorry, haven't had time to read all the replies. What is the draft cross? What is the breed parentage of the "cross" you are thinking about breeding to..and the parentage of the mare to be bred? That is critical in this sort of decision.
                                        www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                                        "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                                        Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

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