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Using the Tb mare in a breeding program

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  • Using the Tb mare in a breeding program

    Since the snow has cancelled my lessons for the afternoon I thought I would get some opinions on a few general questions about using tb mares in your breeding program.

    1. If you decide to breed to a Tb stallion (for example AFR, Sea Accounts, etc) for a full Tb foal, what would your options be for the foal if you can not do live cover? I know you could do PHR, but what else? Would the resulting offspring be eligible in the future as breeding stock for the warmblood registries without JC papers?

    2. When crossing a Tb mare with a warmblood stallion, would you prefer to breed to a lighter type wb stallion (breeding like to like) or would you go for more of a heavy stallion hoping that the resulting foal would be a good blend of the two? In my experience (buying youngsters from breeders) sometimes the wbxtb crosses that come from opposing parents (opposing in type/size) can result in offspring that is either oddly put together or mismatched. Thoughts on that?

    3. This may be a loaded question but, when breeding strictly for jumpers (not hunters), is there much value in having a Tb mare in your program? Does your opinion change when talking about a hunter focused program?

    Basically I have a nice Tb mare, who I think is an exceptional sport horse, but I am not sure whether she should be part of a breeding program (either producing full Tbs or producing wbs). I *personally* love working with full Tbs but I know there isn't nearly as much of a market for them nowadays. I am also not sure whether I like the idea of using a Tb mare in a warmblood program, especially if I decided to breed for jumpers (we are a hunter/jumper barn). So its not as much of a question in quality of the mare, but if using a Tb mare is a *good* choice for a breeding program. I know there are TONS of tb mares that are approved and used in wb programs, but I just thought I would get some opinions on the subject from you all.

  • #2
    My 0.2c...
    1. If the stallion is approved with a WB registry, you can present your mare and have the foal registered that way as well (for example, ISR/OLDNA).
    2. I would look at stallions that are producing nice offspring specifically from TB mares. Many times it is the heavier guys, but most Stallion Owners should have offspring they can show you of their stud x TB. I would look for one that consistently crosses well with a lot of blood, or full TB vs looking just at the stallions type.
    3. From what I have seen, the WBxTB mare crosses do seem more marketable in hunters. There are programs now promoting more diversity in the jumper ring and even looking at full TBs in the jumper ring.

    Now again, my own two cents and our personal experience, we had a very hard time selling our foals from TB mares (one reason why we no longer have any TB mares) - and they were not marketed toward hunters, mind you. I know of a couple hunter breeders on here with really above par TB mares that have NO problem selling those foals year after year (inutero even) but these are proven TB mares paired with very appealing stallions that are crossing well on TB mares. What I see even more of are bucket loads of "average looking" TB mare x WB sire crosses on sales sites for barn-blind prices that do not sell.

    I guess what I'm rambling is with the right TB mare and right cross, absolutely it will work. But the market is a tough one, especially for non-hunter horses. Eventers like a lot of blood but tend to want 2+ year olds, dressage riders and jumpers are going to flock to a proven jumper damline over a TB racing damline - again unless the horse is older and proven or on the way there. Hunters seems to be the exception regarding marketability of foals.
    Celtic Pride Farm
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    • #3
      Both RPSI and OldNA will register full Tb's and they are fully eligible as breeding stock in those registries. Not sure how other registries ( ie Han ) would see them.
      I pick stallions that are somewhat similar in type, but look for those things that the mares need to complement them. Not every WB stallion does well on a TB mare. You do worry about the mismatch thing. The best matches come from the next generation -F1 offspring- although you can get very nice F1 crosses

      I have based my breeding program on horses with at least 1/2 TB or more blood. I've even bought a couple more TB mares to breed in the last year. My F1 TB crosses have won in the dressage ring, the hunter ring and the event world. I cant ask as much for them as a full WB foal, but they are more than able to hold their own with the full WB. I dont think that a full TB mare will add value to a jumper program, but it can produce a very nice individual.

      Besides, I think the crosses are smarter, easier to ride and just more fun to have out there....


      • #4
        if your mare is registered with the jockey club and you breed her to an OldNa approved Tb stallion then the foal can be registered as oldenburg if the mare is approved through the registry. If you would like to see some Tb mares in a breeding program, talk to Nancy Whitehead or go to Roc USA webpage and look at some of his offspring....There is a picture of a horse (barn name Ethan) jumping, a youngster but with a lot of promise. I will let you know how some of mine turn out when they are under saddle. Love my Tb mares.


        • #5
          I breed for jumpers and I have used one TB mare (now retired) I did it looking ahead at F2 and beyond. I have my first F2 on the ground and couldn't be more pleased. I used a very successful performance mare for very specific traits. Not sure I could recommend most TB mares for jumper breeding.

          I think TBs are far more useful in Hunter breeding and wouldn't hesitate to use a nice one. I think you would be much more likely to get what you want in your F1

          I'm pretty sure AHS will not look at a TB mare who does not have JC papers.


          • #6
            SWANA will issue full registry papers to a SWBxTB mare foal without inspection of either the mare or the foal as long as you have the JC papers.

            RPSI recently approved one of my stallions, that is 67.5% TB. See:https://www.facebook.com/TeamGauguin (look for Gauguin's Impression, chestnut with 4 stockings and blaze)

            Also, I have a SWB DIPLOMA jumping mare (Class 1 dressage) that also is 67.5% TB. She is the chestnut with blaze and 3 stockings on Team Gauguin's facebook page - named "Georgia" <I didn't name her...>
            Georgia Langsam
            Team Gauguin, LLC - www.teamgauguin.com
            Standing Gauguin du Cheval 9054, Prestige II TG, Gauguin's Impression, Gauguin's Brush and Weltfrieden TG


            • #7
              Rodawn - Disagree with a few things. Although MANY TBs have the low neck set, those are mostly in the SPRINTERS...if you look for the good distance bred TBs, they often have wonderful neck sets. All of the TBs I've used in my breeding have great pedigrees for the Classic Races - distances.

              Also Ramzes didn't kill the gaits. He is the most influential horse on modern warmblood breeding in Europe. Yes, he produced a lot of great jumpers, but he also produced Rembrandt and a whole slew of great dressage horses.

              But you are right, I think that it is more successful in breeding to cross a warmblood stallion with blood in him already to a TB mare for a better cross. My stallion that I've bred to my TB mares is a double Ramzes and is 35% TB and 5% Shagya Arab. His offspring have great gaits and also mostly jump 5' or more.

              I'm only on my 3rd generation of breeding, but I've produced 5 approved stallions so far and if the economy ever improves, I've got some great ideas of more crosses!
              Georgia Langsam
              Team Gauguin, LLC - www.teamgauguin.com
              Standing Gauguin du Cheval 9054, Prestige II TG, Gauguin's Impression, Gauguin's Brush and Weltfrieden TG


              • #8
                Originally posted by equusaround View Post

                Also Ramzes didn't kill the gaits. He is the most influential horse on modern warmblood breeding in Europe. Yes, he produced a lot of great jumpers, but he also produced Rembrandt and a whole slew of great dressage horses.

                RAMZES is not TB. He was an Anglo-Arab. Ramzes' dressage producing abilities came from his Arabian MOTHER whose lineage was used as a temperament modifier and to improve the tensile strength of the bones in the legs.

                I was speaking entirely about RITTERSPORN XX, who was full TB and a producer of jumpers.
                Practice! Patience! Persistence!


                • #9
                  Hi Rodawn: I know that Ramzes was an AA (actually a xx-Shagya Arab). I can only find 4 offspring of Rittersporn, 3 colts (including Ramzes) and a mare that went to the 1936 Olympics in jumping. How do we know that the jumping ability came from Rittersporn xx? Ramzes had over 80 offspring - both dressage horses and influential jumping horses.
                  Georgia Langsam
                  Team Gauguin, LLC - www.teamgauguin.com
                  Standing Gauguin du Cheval 9054, Prestige II TG, Gauguin's Impression, Gauguin's Brush and Weltfrieden TG


                  • #10
                    It really depends on what your goals are and the traits of your TB mare. At it's height, I had 3 TB mares and 3 WB mares to breed either to my Dutch stallion or my Percheron/TB stallion. I chose my TB mares VERY carefully, based on their movement and good temperment. I have never had any problem selling mine out of my TB mares and they are all registered JC and one is approved AWS and ISR/OLDNA. I could have gone Dutch KWPN with that one-and she's the least athletic of the bunch-but thankfully passes on the stallion's atheticism to her foals.

                    I have full siblings out of my TB mares and they are all great and all a big different. The same is true of my WB mares too. I have never had a "dud" and have never ever had one complaint from the owners of my foals.


                    • #11
                      Assuming you are correct and you have a very good performance proven TB mare then analyze her conformation and assets and faults as you do any breeding mare. It is not different because she is a TB mare. From the point you have a comprehensive evaluation of her...and I would suggest that so you have another set of eyes confirm your feelings about her...you then need to analyze yourself and what you have to offer as a breeder. These are things you need to have or know...facilities to keep mare and foal, facilities to develop the foal from birth to market, understanding of your market, ability to prepare your youngster for sale. If you are confident of the above then you have the knowledge base to choose your stallion. There IS a lot of prejudice against TB mares but it has a lot to do with marketing not the real criticism of the foal, it is something you can overcome but really it will be frustrating to face stupid generalizations. Those generalizations are based on the overwhelming number of not proven in sport TB mares...they often have been inspected and LOOK the part but have not proven their performance chops. It is more rare to have a TB mare who has walked the talk and they certainly have the rights to be bred if they have. Your stallion selection options might include correcting shortcomings or enhancing assets, it may be that some stallions are hot and others not, they may be choices about what your market might like. From the point you have a foal then it is about the condition and quality of your presentation to your market. It is harder to sell a horse that you think, your market with a TB mare might be better for a 4yo and you need to be prepared to hold that long.