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I gota vent! Huge rant!

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  • I gota vent! Huge rant!

    Ok....
    Client takes colt to inspection up north, one of P's babies. Colt scores 1/10 under Prem, whatever... fine.
    Inspectors tell owner the colt would have scored much higher but colt had enlarged joints and fluid due to over feeding and gives clint hard time on "lack of proper knowledge, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Client who is new at breeding panics and rushes colt to vet. Vet looks at colt, colt is fine. Does Xrays anyway, joints are fine. No fluid, no issues
    WHAT SO EVER!

    Vet tells client to send copies of the Xrays to the inspection "experts".......... Vet is agitated, needless to say.

    Ok, Im going to go jog on the treadmill and try to figure out why we waste our time doing inspections and getting "advice from the experts".........


    Rant over........ going back into my black hole.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

  • #2
    Honestly, the only thing I would be mad about is that the inspector gave the poor owner enough worry that she incurred (probably) no small expense having radiographs done for no reason other than the ignorance of the inspector. As for inspection scores, I personally do not put a lot of stock in them. I consider them to be "some" information; I listen to it, consider it, but ultimately form my own opinion which may or may not be the same. I have had horses longer than a lot of inspectors out there, and over time have been very happy with my choices.
    Roseknoll Sporthorses
    www.roseknoll.net

    Comment


    • #3
      I am sorry Lanet. I definitely hear you. It took me quite a few years to come to the conclusion that the European experts are not expert. After presenting 2 mares that scored last, and 2nd last in the country from a registry that I have not seen them turn down ANY mares, I realized that their eye is not what I am looking for.

      The last place mare (in the US) was a mare with an unsightly abscess on her withers. It did not stop her from moving well, but they couldn't see past a lump. She placed at Devon - large open classes, and so have quite a few of her babies (3rd, 3rd, 4th). Those babies have also gone on to do incredibly well showing u/s. The 2nd to last mare is the mother of a 5th o/f 25 mares at Hilltop Farms ISR.OLD inspection & the winner of the Upperville broodmare Class. Another of her foals placed 11th out of 42 at Devon. She may not have placed, but check out that company! http://members.aol.com/fairviewhorse...illies2001.pdf (TB mare, and by a stallion not good enough )

      I have also watched European inspectors license stallions that I totally couldn't see any good parts (poor jumper and mover) that have never done anything in sport or as a sire in the many years since. At the same inspection there were stallions that I was very interested in and were turned down. THOSE stallions went to another registry and have been outstanding sires, and even were and are successfully competing FEI.

      They are the same registries that convinced many to breed to popular stallions, that now several highly thought of German posters have said those stallions do not have elasticity in their gaits. From this "training", we have many Americans not having a clue what elasticity is because they thought they WERE breeding for elasticity.

      Registries are like fraternities or sororities - clubs. Join the one you like to socialize with, but take what they are teaching with a grain of salt, and go elsewhere for education.

      BTW, back around 1990, when Don Kapper was teaching us how nutrition was related to joint growth soundness, WE were the ones teaching the Europeans, not the other way around.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow! That's really a shame, LaNet. Would it do any good to send the vet report to the Registry that conducted the inspection?
        PennyG

        Comment


        • #5
          I think it's sad that a case as mentioned by STF causes other folks to use the really broad brush and call all European judges non-experts.

          I have no idea what the registry in question is but feel it necessary to tell you that I appreciate the judging that goes on in my registry. I appreciate it more than some of the judging I get at breed shows like Devon, Morven Park, Fair Hill, etc. Why? Because I know that the folks giving me a critique on my "products" have looked at literally hundreds upon hundreds of horses and that is something you can't replace with just book knowledge and the occasional breed show here and there.

          It is amazing that a comment about a feeding regimen causes such explosive reactions. I certainly would not consider the average vet to be a good judge of horse nutrition, and doing radiographs on "filled" joints would give you little, if any, additional information.

          So the colt didn't quite make premium..... So what? The only reason the owner is ticked is because a judge had the audacity to question his/her feeding program, and that then becomes the ammunition to question "European judging" throughout the country.

          Give me a break!
          Siegi Belz
          www.stalleuropa.com
          2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
          Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm going to side with Siegi on this one. And, without any of us having been there, it's impossible to know exactly what the judge told the woman. Many of us hear in bits and pieces. The judge may have merely commented to watch the foal's joints as they were a bit enlarged and could pose a problem in the future and the client heard "the joints are enlarged blah, blah, blah". Consider this - if the judge had noticed that the joints were a bit enlarged and said nothing to the neophyte owner and the foal's joints continued along that path with the owner blithely believing all was right with the world and the foal's joints blew up? Erring on the side of conservative, I would be thankful that the judge commented on how the foal looked. So what if the owner incurred a little bit of an expense. They can at least now sleep knowing that there isn't an issue!

            And, they judge what they see on a given day. My one foal this year broke his toe off up into the quick. Lovely, lovely foal, but because that toe was so short and I wasn't willing to file his heel completely down, he's up on it and he's also "off" on it. No biggie, but the foot does look upright. The judge and I discussed it, I flipped up the foot for him to see and we talked about what we could do so that the foot did not continue to grow incorrectly, e.g., keep filing the heel down every week or so while the toe grows out (which was exactly what the plan was anyway). The look of the foot was incorrect despite it being obviously NOT a conformational flaw. My foal's final score was an 8.2, but because his conformational score was below 8, he was not a premium. So what? The judge was correct. Now, if I was new to breeding and heard only part of what was being said, the possibility exists that I'd be in a panic that my foal was going to end up with a club foot. Or, if I was new to breeding and wasn't aware of what the possible ramifications of not staying on top of keeping the foal trimmed correctly while the toe grows out and the judge hadn't commented, I might walk away from the whole thing blithely thinking all was right with the world.

            I feel for these judges having so many people second guessing what the conversation was and armchair quarterbacking what "should" have been said. They truly are damned if they do and damned if they don't. But before crucifying the judge, think about the possibility that the individual just didn't quite hear what exactly was being said.

            Kathy St.Martin
            Equine Reproduction Short Courses
            http://www.equine-reproduction.com
            Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
            Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
              I think it's sad that a case as mentioned by STF causes other folks to use the really broad brush and call all European judges non-experts.

              I have no idea what the registry in question is but feel it necessary to tell you that I appreciate the judging that goes on in my registry. I appreciate it more than some of the judging I get at breed shows like Devon, Morven Park, Fair Hill, etc. Why? Because I know that the folks giving me a critique on my "products" have looked at literally hundreds upon hundreds of horses and that is something you can't replace with just book knowledge and the occasional breed show here and there.

              It is amazing that a comment about a feeding regimen causes such explosive reactions. I certainly would not consider the average vet to be a good judge of horse nutrition, and doing radiographs on "filled" joints would give you little, if any, additional information.

              So the colt didn't quite make premium..... So what? The only reason the owner is ticked is because a judge had the audacity to question his/her feeding program, and that then becomes the ammunition to question "European judging" throughout the country.

              Give me a break!

              1) I dont give a rats ass about inspection, I think its a opinion based on politics. End of story

              2) Im upset that the inspectors belittled the lady in front of everyone saying she was hurting her horse due to her feeding program and making her feel like an idiot "because her horse was to fat!"

              No breaks needed to give.........
              www.spindletopfarm.net
              Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
              "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                [quote=Equine Reproduction;3559932]I'm going to side with Siegi on this one. And, without any of us having been there, it's impossible to know exactly what the judge told the woman. Many of us hear in bits and pieces. The judge may have merely commented to watch the foal's joints as they were a bit enlarged and could pose a problem in the future and the client heard "the joints are enlarged blah, blah, blah". Consider this - if the judge had noticed that the joints were a bit enlarged and said nothing to the neophyte owner and the foal's joints continued along that path with the owner blithely believing all was right with the world and the foal's joints blew up? Erring on the side of conservative, I would be thankful that the judge commented on how the foal looked. So what if the owner incurred a little bit of an expense. They can at least now sleep knowing that there isn't an issue!

                And, they judge what they see on a given day. My one foal this year broke his toe off up into the quick. Lovely, lovely foal, but because that toe was so short and I wasn't willing to file his heel completely down, he's up on it and he's also "off" on it. No biggie, but the foot does look upright. The judge and I discussed it, I flipped up the foot for him to see and we talked about what we could do so that the foot did not continue to grow incorrectly, e.g., keep filing the heel down every week or so while the toe grows out (which was exactly what the plan was anyway). The look of the foot was incorrect despite it being obviously NOT a conformational flaw. My foal's final score was an 8.2, but because his conformational score was below 8, he was not a premium. So what? The judge was correct. Now, if I was new to breeding and heard only part of what was being said, the possibility exists that I'd be in a panic that my foal was going to end up with a club foot. Or, if I was new to breeding and wasn't aware of what the possible ramifications of not staying on top of keeping the foal trimmed correctly while the toe grows out and the judge hadn't commented, I might walk away from the whole thing blithely thinking all was right with the world.

                I feel for these judges having so many people second guessing what the conversation was and armchair quarterbacking what "should" have been said. They truly are damned if they do and damned if they don't. But before crucifying the judge, think about the possibility that the individual just didn't quite hear what exactly was being said.

                Kathy St.Martin
                Equine Reproduction Short Courses
                http://www.equine-reproduction.com[/quote]


                I was told first hand. But yes, your damned if you do and damned if you dont in this industry. I have met my share of nasty people and nothing suprises me anymore, AT ALL.
                www.spindletopfarm.net
                Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by TKR View Post
                  Wow! That's really a shame, LaNet. Would it do any good to send the vet report to the Registry that conducted the inspection?
                  PennyG

                  You know as well as I do, it would not matter.
                  www.spindletopfarm.net
                  Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                  "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    The look of the foot was incorrect despite it being obviously NOT a conformational flaw. My foal's final score was an 8.2, but because his conformational score was below 8, he was not a premium. So what? The judge was correct. Now, if I was new to breeding and heard only part of what was being said, the possibility exists that I'd be in a panic that my foal was going to end up with a club foot.

                    But your not stupid to facts Kathy. You would not get panic'd where some other new breeders would and think that the registry reps should know what they are talking about.
                    www.spindletopfarm.net
                    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                      Honestly, the only thing I would be mad about is that the inspector gave the poor owner enough worry that she incurred (probably) no small expense having radiographs done for no reason other than the ignorance of the inspector. As for inspection scores, I personally do not put a lot of stock in them. I consider them to be "some" information; I listen to it, consider it, but ultimately form my own opinion which may or may not be the same. I have had horses longer than a lot of inspectors out there, and over time have been very happy with my choices.

                      I have been to a lot of inspections and most of them went very well. I seem to be hearing a lot of horror stories from others about this year. Not sure "whats in the air!"
                      Most of the time I just figure it someone with a chip on their shoulder, but some of the stories this year and blowing my mind.
                      www.spindletopfarm.net
                      Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                      "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        LaNet,
                        I'm with you on this one. There is never a reason for that type of rudeness and atually abuse to occur at an inspection. What a pompous judge to make a public spectical of this breeder. I don't know what the registry is or where it was, but if it happened in the DFW area, there's a high possibility that this breeder will be almost black-balled and talked about poorly by others. Been there, had that happen to me. They won't know that she took the colt to get checked. They won't know that the colt is fine.

                        It's so much easier to breed TBs, Arabs, QHs, Welsh Cobs, Andalusians, Lusitanos, etc. At least you can just pay your money,k get your papers and do your thing.

                        That's a sad tale. Sorry it happened to your cllient.

                        Donna

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sounds so familiar, yet on a different level....

                          A total newbie to the whole inspection process, having been a H/J rider my whole life, I take the love of my LIFE 5 hours away to a big AHS inspection. Thank goodness there were such generous folks to help me, as I was totally overwhelmed with me alone ( except for my glorious hauler/cowboy who was a superstar), a mare and my beloved filly. I arrive, confused, clueless, find my stall and meet the "handler" I have hired. Well known fellow, takes one look at my filly and says, "well, she is nice, but what about her epiphysitis?"

                          I am thunderstruck? Her WHAT? I have been at a very fine dressage barn with excellent care and no mention of "epiphysitis". She isn't lame, her joints look okay to ME but what do I know about foals???

                          I am going crazy. I have my computer working, I am calling the stallion owner and the barn owner and asking - tell me, what am I not seeing? How horrible is this going to be tomorrow????? Am I going to be humiliated and asked to leave the ring????????????????????????????

                          I can't sleep. Next day is a blur. I think inspector is going to point to my filly and tell me her joints are big and she has epiphysitis. Send me packing. Handler still hired - I am devastated, can't blame him, what have I missed ???(again!).

                          Outcome?

                          filly top filly of the inspection. Inspectors loved her. Handler beaming -


                          Me? On the five hour drive back to home, I think and think and think -

                          - and think I wish I had some Xanax :yes
                          "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



                          www.dontlookbackfarm.com

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            except for my glorious hauler/cowboy who was a superstar), a mare and my beloved filly. I arrive, confused, clueless, find my stall and meet the "handler" I have hired. Well known fellow, takes one look at my filly and says, "well, she is nice, but what about her epiphysitis?"
                            I live in Cowboy land and so many people come out and see our "big horses" and think there is something wrong with their joints. But.... our yearlings are the size of their full grown horses!
                            www.spindletopfarm.net
                            Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                            "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              but if it happened in the DFW area, there's a high possibility that this breeder will be almost black-balled and talked about poorly by others.
                              Thats not just in DFW, its anywhere. Breeders etc are like bee's and they start buzzing any negative rumors they possibly can! Horse people FEED ON DRAMA!
                              www.spindletopfarm.net
                              Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                              "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by STF View Post
                                I have been to a lot of inspections and most of them went very well. I seem to be hearing a lot of horror stories from others about this year. Not sure "whats in the air!"
                                Most of the time I just figure it someone with a chip on their shoulder, but some of the stories this year and blowing my mind.
                                I have witnessed mixed things at inspections, from very good to outright ridiculous politics and lack of knowledge. BUT I DON"T CARE. I go anyway, because I think it is useful to have someone else's opinions of your horse. I don't put any more stock in a mediocre review than I do an outstanding one -- which is to say, I continue to think independently and may or may not agree with what is said. And I don't always agree when mine get raves, either.

                                And even IF the foal in fact had enlarged joints, if in fact the inspector concluded that was necessarily due to a poor feeding regime (as LaNet reports), imo, that was irresponsible. Since when is an inspector a veterinarian (or nutritionist, for that matter?) If there was cause for concern, the appropriate thing to do would be to point out the issue to the owner -- politely -- and perhaps suggest that she get it checked out. It is not appropriate to diagnose the horse, or to publicly berate the owner for allegedly being ignorant.

                                As for it being no big deal that the inspector caused the woman to incur unnecessary expenses, I am glad some have no problem shelling out $1000 or so for no good reason. I guess I have never been that flip about money that I wouldn't care -- and I do spare no expense when it comes to my horses' care (in fact, the whole scenario is unlikely to happen to me because my horses are monitored pretty closely by me, my vet, and my farrier).
                                Roseknoll Sporthorses
                                www.roseknoll.net

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  I go to inspections for the papers, and the drinks.
                                  www.spindletopfarm.net
                                  Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
                                  "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    STF - I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill..... Just my opinion.... :-)
                                    Siegi Belz
                                    www.stalleuropa.com
                                    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                                      And even IF the foal in fact had enlarged joints, if in fact the inspector concluded that was necessarily due to a poor feeding regime (as LaNet reports), imo, that was irresponsible.
                                      You're a lawyer <smile>...you know the rules on hearsay, which was exactly my point. Things get blown out of context. We get LOTS of phone calls from breeders who are literally panicked by something their vet has said, or a friend has said, or the stallion owner has said ...only to find out that what was discussed may have been taken completely out of context. So, unless I'm standing right there and hear the things said first hand by all parties concerned, I ask LOTS of questions before assuming anything!

                                      Since when is an inspector a veterinarian (or nutritionist, for that matter?)
                                      Errr....uhhh...the ISR/Oldenburg N.A.'s main inspector "is" a veterinarian.

                                      If there was cause for concern, the appropriate thing to do would be to point out the issue to the owner -- politely -- and perhaps suggest that she get it checked out. It is not appropriate to diagnose the horse, or to publicly berate the owner for allegedly being ignorant.
                                      If it was an ISR inspection, I would be really, really surprised to hear that it was handled inappropriately and in the manner that it is being claimed here. Which inspection was it LaNet? You don't need to name names, but I have no doubt that someone on this board probably attended and if indeed a big scene was made about the filly's legs, someone would have remembered it. I'm sure I can find out what exactly was said and if it was made a public spectacle. And, if indeed it was handled inappropriately, I'll be more than happy to contact the registry and discuss the way it was handled and let them know that someone was dissatisfied.

                                      I know at the inspection we were yesterday, there was a very thin broodmare and the inspector was exceedingly polite and kind to the owners and definitely made no accusations or berating comments. Same as with my foal. Indeed, in the past there have been a couple inspectors/judges for some of the registries that were not known for being "user friendly", but quite honestly, I haven't heard of ANY of the inspectors from ANY of the registries this year being considered anything but polite and professional.

                                      As for it being no big deal that the inspector caused the woman to incur unnecessary expenses, I am glad some have no problem shelling out $1000 or so for no good reason. I guess I have never been that flip about money that I wouldn't care -- and I do spare no expense when it comes to my horses' care (in fact, the whole scenario is unlikely to happen to me because my horses are monitored pretty closely by me, my vet, and my farrier).
                                      As said above, we're only hearing LaNet's version of what occurred. Before drawing and quartering ANYONE, I would want to know a bit more about what was said and how it was said.

                                      Kathy St.Martin
                                      Equine Reproduction Short Courses
                                      http://www.equine-reproduction.com
                                      Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                                      Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        What Kathy said!!
                                        Siegi Belz
                                        www.stalleuropa.com
                                        2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                        Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                                        Comment

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