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New Changes to Hanoverian Breeding Policies; A sign of the times?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by River Maiden View Post
    Simple question... I have a branded Hanoverian mare with her passport. So, if I bred her to an approved Oldenburg stallion, that is not Hanoverian approved, the foal could be registered Hanoverian, considered Hanoverian and eligible for mmb, elite status if qualified?
    Only if the Oldenburg stallion is within the top discipline-dependant range for the performance or sire rankings of the WBFSH

    OR

    the Oldenburg stallion is a top young stallion that has not yet met the full approval requirements (e.g., a winner of a 30-day test, but has not yet met the follow on performance and/or full testing requirements).
    Last edited by Bent Hickory; Jan. 27, 2013, 12:48 PM.
    "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

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    • #62
      Originally posted by dianehalpin View Post
      Ah Feather River -

      "However, we also want our breeders to act independently and to decide themselves." -Dr. Werner Schade

      That sounds like encouragement to me and I just thought it would be smart to do that "intelligently"; however, feel free to be dependent or independent with or without intelligence.

      Diane Halpin/Laurel Leaf Hanoverians: FaceBook
      mare owners have always decided for themselves, and the Verband can only control the stallion direction--which they use to improve the mare base and to move it in a particular direction.

      without snippy comments, this post could be more useful to some who would like to become better informed on current developments.
      Discipline is the Bridge between Dreams and Accomplishments

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      • #63
        Sorry! I was channeling Lady Grantham.

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        • #64
          Diane - you made me laugh!
          I'm expecting that the Verband and AHS will have a few queries this coming year or two as to whether a stallion falls within guidelines.
          Sunny Days Hanoverians
          http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com

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          • #65
            I know it is an older thread but I met a lady recently who has an ISR OldNA young mare. That young mare is by an ISR OldNA licenced stallion (no SPT but I believe he has met the performance requirements for ISR OldNA). The dam of that young mare is a Hanoverian approved and branded mare. She was telling me she was bringing her young mare to the Hanoverian Verband inspection for breeding approval. I asked her if she was sure her mare was eligible (due to her sire) and she went on to tell me that she had the "ok" to do so from the Verband.

            I didn't wanted to start a debate, and I wished her good luck, but my understanding was that only the MSB of Hanoverian Verband was "open" in Canada and consequently if the sire of this young mare is not SPT or at least licenced by the Hanoverian Verband or another acknowledgeable (spelling?) registry (German rules), there was no way to have such mare approved, even if she is very good. Pedigree would just not qualify.

            Am I right or am I missing something? I tought maybe this is a consequence of the new rules, but still. That mare was entered to the Pre Studbook II with GOV, because of her sire.

            Speaking for speaking, my husband and I are slowly taking the turn towards breeding only Hanoverians (and once in a while german Oldenburgs) because we like the strict, high degree of standards and tradition of the HV. And wanted to be part of that. But if they start to allow all kind of pedigrees and horses, then they are just another registry (in my eyes) like there's dozens of out there. And then, what's the point?
            Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
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            • #66
              makes me want to revisit the kettle of fish with my premium CWHBA mare, Freedom Z-Buntspecht de Lauzelle. She cant go Hanno because she has an unnaproved tb bottom line, they said previously.
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              • #67
                We do get a number of enquiries at the CHS website "Can my mare be approved?" In many cases I can say "no" right off the bat. If not clear, the pedigree is sent to Germany and the decision made.
                There is a big .pdf on the website under the "Breeding" tab, entitled "Guideline for the Breeder", which addresses most questions, but few people seem to read it ..
                Sunny Days Hanoverians
                http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com

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                • #68
                  I have read it (in fact I have printed it and regularly refer to it) and that's why I first tought that mare was not eligible. But the lady seemed so sure of her answer I started to doubt if I was understanding the rules correctly or not and did not argued with her.
                  Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
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                  • #69
                    The warmblood is a type, not a breed. Hans are no different. Sorry. None of these horses are PBs and even the standard describes the ideal in the most general terms. I would bet serious $$ that barely 1 breeder in 50 could actually tell the REGISTRY of any WB just by looking. Maybe pick out one or two ancestors by the phenotype of the horse, or spot the discipline it would be best suited for.

                    But actually identify the registry? Actually discriminate between Oldenburgs, Swedish, Dutch, Han, RPSI, Westphalians just by looking at the (non-branded side) of the horse? Don't believe it for a single, solitary second.

                    WBs are purpose-bred animals who were produced regionally, hence the various registries. Now that shipped semen is available and the world is so small, these "regions" like to pretend their horse is different from another regions. But it simply is NOT true anymore.

                    If you are looking for a dressage prospect, the same lines show up in ALL the registries. Ditto with jumpers.

                    So now registries need to do something to generate some $$. To me, registries should serve their membership in some way. Inspections, gradings, studbook records, stallion/mare testing etc. are all useful IF the standards are high enough. Helping membership market via auctions and such would also be helpful.

                    But pretending that just because you call a horse a Hanoverian when it's genetics are something different is treating the buying public like morons...and (IMHO) alittle bit shady as well.

                    In terms of BREEDING, a horse is what it's GENETICS are, not what the papers say.

                    Although I breed for the horse (not the brand), both my mares are registered Hanoverian. But in the end, I basically decided to go to a registry that served MY needs, rather then switch my whole breeding program to fit a registry's time-line.

                    But if the AHS or the Verband REALLY wants to help breeders, they can (like the Dutch) keep their standards super high. THAT I could use -- knowing that any stallion they approve has either met a high level of performance OR been checked over with a fine tooth comb.

                    Really, the Dutch have it right...they will take any stallion of any registry, but it must meet certain standards. So if I see a stallion is "approved" Dutch, I take notice.

                    But I'm smart enough to know that even if I breed my "pure" Han. mare to an Oldenburg stallion (with a Trake dam) who is also 'approved' Dutch, then register the foal with RPSI, that what I'm getting is a WARMBLOOD....period.

                    IMHO the only registry that "might" have a truly (genetically) consolidated mare line would be Holstein....the rest have been mixing & matching with the main goal to be performance for generations....

                    To think otherwise is nonsensical and simply not true in terms of actual genetics....
                    Last edited by Kyzteke; Sep. 7, 2013, 09:03 AM.

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                    • #70
                      Kyzteke: You are missing my question and honestly, I am not sure why you think that I think that Hano is anything else than a registry. I am not shady or anything. And I was not speaking about identifying horses etc. Plain and only asking if the new rules would allow a mare from a non-approved (or performance tested with the Hano standards) stallion to be presented, in Canada, for breeding approval... And if the answer was yes... well. I would be a little disappointed I admit, because I was expecting something else from the Hanoverian registry. That's all.

                      Hubby and I liked the high standards and strict rules of Hanoverians and that is why we were slowly bending our breeding program towards registering our foals there and bought an Hanoverian broodmare etc, because we (personally) felt that it is the kind of standards we wanted to follow and pursue in our own breeding program. It is a totally personal choice and other breeders are choosing other registries for other reasons that match their needs and way of thinking and I have absolutely no problem with that. I have a friend who is breeding Holsteiners, another breeds Lusitanos, another breeds some Cheval Canadien and I absolutely love and respect each of their breeding program, as well as many others!

                      I have posted in this specific topic... about the Hanoverian registry rules, because I wanted to have infos about how to interprete the new rules and what it might/can/will imply.. for the Hanoverian registry.

                      My english must be very bad because each time I ask a simple question, people always seems to find a way to complicate the question and answers or elaborate on subjects that are not really related to the question I have asked, or try to find meanings that I don't even tought about while writing my question. No offense Kyzteke, I am just a bit tired of how all conversations on this board always turns non-friendly or condescendant (if this word exists in english) without any reasons.
                      Last edited by Spike; Sep. 5, 2013, 05:08 PM. Reason: spelling, spelling and again spelling...
                      Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
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                      • #71
                        Spike - I would be hugely surprised if Hannover will accept a mare sired by a stallion that 1) isn't approved by a registry with stallion approval / performance criteria similar to Hannover's; and 2) hasn't completed performance requirements on a par with those mandated by German registries.

                        Also bear in mind that, when calling German Verbands, one has to be very clear about spelling out that the stallion is approved only by ISR/ONA and that the stallion has met only the ISR/ONA performance requirements, which are NOT on par with those of German reqistries.

                        There are unfortunately still some people at some of the Verbands that do not completely understand the difference between OHBS/GOV and ONA, and who, when they hear the word "Oldenburg", assume you are talking about an OHBS/GOV horse (or a stallion approved by OHBS/GOV).

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                        • #72
                          Spike: Actually, I wasn't really responding to your question at all. This thread began by discussing the ramifications of a registry change made this past winter.

                          I was responding to that aspect of the discussion, not your specific question, which I confess I did not read. Because, as far as what a registry will do on any given day, I don't answer those questions because I'm not a representative of AHS or the Verband. You would be best served simply by contacting them, because I've found decisions are often made on a case by case basis.

                          Understand that just because my post came directly after yours does not mean I was responding directly to you or your post. It can get confusing, so I like to include a quote if I am responding to a specific other post as opposed to just contributing to the general topic of the thread.

                          Does that make sense?

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                          • #73
                            Lol of course it makes much more sense!! Thanks for clarifying! I guess I will have to wait at the inspection and see. I would feel sorry for the lady if she was misleaded to think her mare was eligible, but in another way, it would not make sense if her mare ends up being eligible because I can't see how this would be in accordance with the registy's rules or guidelines. But I might very well be off track too. We'll see!!
                            Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
                            Visit EdA's Facebook page!

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                            • #74
                              Hubby and I liked the high standards and strict rules of Hanoverians and that is why we were slowly bending our breeding program towards registering our foals there and bought an Hanoverian broodmare etc, because we (personally) felt that it is the kind of standards we wanted to follow and pursue in our own breeding program. It is a totally personal choice and other breeders are choosing other registries for other reasons that match their needs and way of thinking and I have absolutely no problem with that. I have a friend who is breeding Holsteiners, another breeds Lusitanos, another breeds some Cheval Canadien and I absolutely love and respect each of their breeding program, as well as many others!
                              (bolding mine) I completely understand what you're saying. I feel the same.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Spike View Post
                                I know it is an older thread but I met a lady recently who has an ISR OldNA young mare. That young mare is by an ISR OldNA licenced stallion (no SPT but I believe he has met the performance requirements for ISR OldNA). The dam of that young mare is a Hanoverian approved and branded mare. She was telling me she was bringing her young mare to the Hanoverian Verband inspection for breeding approval. I asked her if she was sure her mare was eligible (due to her sire) and she went on to tell me that she had the "ok" to do so from the Verband.

                                I didn't wanted to start a debate, and I wished her good luck, but my understanding was that only the MSB of Hanoverian Verband was "open" in Canada and consequently if the sire of this young mare is not SPT or at least licenced by the Hanoverian Verband or another acknowledgeable (spelling?) registry (German rules), there was no way to have such mare approved, even if she is very good. Pedigree would just not qualify.

                                Am I right or am I missing something? I tought maybe this is a consequence of the new rules, but still. That mare was entered to the Pre Studbook II with GOV, because of her sire.

                                Speaking for speaking, my husband and I are slowly taking the turn towards breeding only Hanoverians (and once in a while german Oldenburgs) because we like the strict, high degree of standards and tradition of the HV. And wanted to be part of that. But if they start to allow all kind of pedigrees and horses, then they are just another registry (in my eyes) like there's dozens of out there. And then, what's the point?
                                I have a similar situation. My mare is registered ISR/Oldenburg (not my choice as I was not the breeder); however, she is eligible to be registered KWPN since her dam is imported from Holland and approved KWPN. I am considering revoking my young mare's original papers and getting KWPN papers. I also now own her dam, who was a champion in sport and has produced 5 foals, 3 of whom are extremely successful in sport under saddle and 2 stallion prospects. The sire of my young mare is Hanoverian, who absolved his 2-year-old licensing in Verden with extremely good marks, and also has a stellar performance and production career with many of his offspring doing extremely well in the USEF and EC. He has been in the top 20 sires list for the last 3-4 years in a row. I sent the pedigree to the Verband, along with performance records. The Hanoverian Verband committee approved the pedigree and records, and we went through with the risk of getting her inspected. She was approved Hanoverian MMB.

                                Hanoverian Verband is still very strict. They don't just go and approve a pedigree willy nilly. The owner of any Non-Hanoverian mare has to have the right documentation to support the request. My mare came with performance records from her mother as well as her mother's foal production records, records for herself, her siblings, including confirmed values of money won, as well as performance records from her sire. The damline of my young mare and her mother is very strong with 6 generations of Keur Preferent or Keur Preferent Prestatie (due to high keuring values, performance to the GP level in both show jumping and dressage, as well as producing offspring who performed to the GP level) and the damline is very similarly bred as 4 stallions standing at Celle. This was what made the difference in her case. It's not the "registry" she was papered with that they looked at, but rather all of the facts that make up the horse for who she is.
                                Last edited by rodawn; Sep. 7, 2013, 09:35 PM.
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                                • #76
                                  I am excited from a jumping breeding standpoint and as someone who is not in the epicenter of sport horse breeding.

                                  I know my mare is eligible for presentation (I have inquired and submitted her passport) as she is by an Oldenburg (who ironically was approved for Hano breeding) and half SF, but I registered her with RPSI. We didn't meet the 1/2 hanverian bloodline rule. So, RPSI was the only registry available to me distance-wise in the year of her birth (no GOV inspection was held that year--that is what I had intended to register her as). I may still use RPSI, as I was rather impressed at the inspection, but it is nice to have options too!

                                  I've noticed some years there are, and some years there are not, inspections for various registries around me and it makes it VERY difficult to plan! I don't think there was a Hanoverian inspection in MN this year, for example.
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                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                                    I have a similar situation. My mare is registered ISR/Oldenburg (not my choice as I was not the breeder); however, she is eligible to be registered KWPN since her dam is imported from Holland and approved KWPN. I am considering revoking my young mare's original papers and getting KWPN papers.
                                    Is your mare branded? If so, how would that work? She would be branded ISR/ONA but registered as KWPN - wouldn't that be a bit confusing?

                                    Then again, KWPN frequently re-issues its own papers, registration numbers, etc., for horses from outside registries, so maybe it is do-able after all. Case in point is the stallion Contango, who was registered/branded as an Oldenburg, yet went through most of his adult life "marketed" as a KPWN horse (and is still referred to by many people as "the Dutch stallion Contango").

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                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                      Is your mare branded? If so, how would that work? She would be branded ISR/ONA but registered as KWPN - wouldn't that be a bit confusing?

                                      Then again, KWPN frequently re-issues its own papers, registration numbers, etc., for horses from outside registries, so maybe it is do-able after all. Case in point is the stallion Contango, who was registered/branded as an Oldenburg, yet went through most of his adult life "marketed" as a KPWN horse (and is still referred to by many people as "the Dutch stallion Contango").
                                      I don't know much about ISR/OLD-NA since I don't use that registry, but I presume branding must be optional since she was specifically not branded.
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                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                                        I don't know much about ISR/OLD-NA since I don't use that registry, but I presume branding must be optional since she was specifically not branded.
                                        Really? Wow, the times they are a changin! Branding of foals for the ONA book used to be mandatory.

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                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                          Really? Wow, the times they are a changin! Branding of foals for the ONA book used to be mandatory.
                                          No idea whatsoever what their policies or procedures are - I am not a member of that registry and have never registered foals with the ISR/Old-NA. My mare was awarded Premium Filly (I have her award certificate) at her inspection back as a baby, but not branded at owner's request. Her full sister and full brother were also awarded premium certificates and also were not branded.
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