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Ralando II VERSUS Caracci for hunters, let's discuss!

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  • Ralando II VERSUS Caracci for hunters, let's discuss!

    These two stallions happen to be new on the hunter type market for mare owners.

    Rolando has Ramiro bloodlines and Caracci has Caretino bloodlines.

    What differences in type do these stallions have?

    As I always love to here about bloodlines and what they produce, I thought this might be a great discussion!

  • #2
    Well, since I stare at both boys every day and have come to know them quite well, I'll throw out my thoughts...

    Both boys should reliably throw their jump and temperament. Carracci is obviously more proven in both departments, but Ralando's pedigree is deeply rooted in Holstein and he has happily and succesfully packed ammies around for more than half his life.

    Typewise though... they are very different as their recent conformation pictures show.

    Carracci: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    Ralando: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    For hunters especially, in most cases, a mare will either be more suited to Ralando or to Carracci, but there is a small degree of overlap and in this case, it really comes down to what the mare owner prefers.

    Feel free to ask more... like I said, I do the boys bidding each day so I know them well and am very happy to share candid information.
    www.avenir-farm.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
      Well, since I stare at both boys every day and have come to know them quite well, I'll throw out my thoughts...

      Both boys should reliably throw their jump and temperament. Carracci is obviously more proven in both departments, but Ralando's pedigree is deeply rooted in Holstein and he has happily and succesfully packed ammies around for more than half his life.

      Typewise though... they are very different as their recent conformation pictures show.

      Carracci: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

      Ralando: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

      For hunters especially, in most cases, a mare will either be more suited to Ralando or to Carracci, but there is a small degree of overlap and in this case, it really comes down to what the mare owner prefers.

      Feel free to ask more... like I said, I do the boys bidding each day so I know them well and am very happy to share candid information.
      OK-- I'll bite. IMO, Carracci is definitely more photogenic-- lovely face and expression, shoulder and hip angles and length-- pretty boy-- and performs .... But what about the knees and front ankles? Did he get hurt? That's a pretty pronounced bump on the left knee, and the ankles seem enlarged enough to obscure the fetlock/pastern conformation. I don't know how important such things are in evaluating a proven stallion, but have seen OTTB's in this forum severely criticized for lesser flaws -- e.g. one dismissed for "short, straight pasterns" which looked longer and cleaner that Carracci's do here.

      Not to diss Carracci-- I've loved his videos, think he's a nice horse, and don't mind a bit of well earned "jewelry" on horses who've worked for a living! Just curious and looking forward to the information you're willing to share.
      http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Fish, no problem! There has never been an attempt to hide Carracci's injury, especially since it lead him here and we now have access to this guy. Unfortunately, Carracci incurred an injury to his fetlock (not conformationally-related) when he was owned by and competing for Gestut Dobel. He was dubbed as the "great hope for '04." The injury sidelined what was a promising international career but Carracci continued his GP career after he was purchased by the head of Coca-Cola Spain and then the Kelly's bought him in '06 and became Christina's junior jumper. The heart of the horse is simply undeniable.

        The knee... that was a pasture goof ... he's aok now. The boy is downhill to 19 and sometimes forgets that he's not the spry youth he once was.

        Despite being almost 19, his competitive jewelry and the lameness that has resulted because of it, the sBs judges gave him scores of:

        Type/Muscularity: 8.5
        Forelegs: 8
        Hindlegs: 8
        Canter: 9

        His scores for the trot and walk were 7s for which the judges were very sweet as they apologized that they couldn't give him better scores. NO complaints from the Kelly's... the boy has earned all of his battle scars and they love him for it.
        www.avenir-farm.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Seriously?! Who can pick I met both of them this fall and would be hard pressed to choose a favorite. It really does come down to the mare.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Ok then, I will give you a mare to assess....

            15.3 TB mare, very petite and fine boned, but size in the family (dad is 16.2). Short bodied, very light flat mover(most beautiful walk you have ever seen and has passed it on to both her jumper bred foals.) and jumps hard (tight in the hind end which led to scope issues). Long legs, feminine face, great shoulder angle. In my opinion needs more elasticity and better hind end. She is also on the hot side, a tad suspicious of new things and not the bravest.

            Has been bred to Galoubet/Voltaire lines twice, both produced big movers, much more scope, bravery (4 year old will jump anything without batting an eye) and elasticity, very quiet almost too quiet/stubborn. ( this is referring to the one that is riding age) Extremely smart and talented though! 4 year old is 16.2 and younger one will easily reach 17 hands. So size is not an issue.

            I have heard that in Carentino breeding the offspring can be very different in types. Some big and heavy and some tiny and hot. Has anyone else seen this?

            How about movement in these two? Are they similar? Are they similar in size and bone?

            Since these 2 stallions don't have a lot of offspring I am trying to also see bloodline characteristics.

            Comment


            • #7
              Samotis ... your mare falls into that in between category and I could really see either boy for your girl. Both have fabulous hind ends and use themself consistently very well over a fence.

              The easy answers...

              1) Carracci is 16.1 and Ralando is nearly 16.3
              2) Carracci is lighter boned than Ralando.
              3) Temperament and rideability on both is exceptional. Carracci throws his temperament and rideability to his kids. Just look at how his daughter tackles this technical course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOE4UZlrbVA

              Hard decision!
              www.avenir-farm.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Carracci seems to be similarly bred as Cabardino.. maybe comparing what he is throwing "might" help some.. just a thought.
                Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
                " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
                Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Having seen Cabardino in the flesh, I can tell you that he is not the same type as Carracci. The two do share both Caretino and Grundyman xx in their pedigrees, but Cabardino has Grundyman via Gaspari whose dam is Texas, Flemmingh's dam. She was not a small mare. I've seen a number of Cabardino offspring that have ranged in size and type, with some being rather large and long. He is not a stallion I would use hoping to shrink a mare as what he is in phenotype is not what I have seen him throw, even with holsteiner mares.

                  I put a 17.2 hand Carolus I mare to Carracci with a few goals in mind, two of which were to refine and shrink. He seems to throw what he is with regards to type and size in the few offspring that are out there so giving him this mare is a true test for his prepotency for sure!
                  "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ponygirl View Post
                    Having seen Cabardino in the flesh, I can tell you that he is not the same type as Carracci. The two do share both Caretino and Grundyman xx in their pedigrees, but Cabardino has Grundyman via Gaspari whose dam is Texas, Flemmingh's dam. She was not a small mare. I've seen a number of Cabardino offspring that have ranged in size and type, with some being rather large and long. He is not a stallion I would use hoping to shrink a mare as what he is in phenotype is not what I have seen him throw, even with holsteiner mares.

                    I put a 17.2 hand Carolus I mare to Carracci with a few goals in mind, two of which were to refine and shrink. He seems to throw what he is with regards to type and size in the few offspring that are out there so giving him this mare is a true test for his prepotency for sure!
                    That makes sense! Like I said it was just a thought.. but they are defintely not the same type.
                    Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
                    " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
                    Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A good thought too Equine LVR! I'll let you all know if Carracci does what I want him to with regards to this mare. I also have a Cardento mare in foal to him. I'll report back about this foal too if folks have any interest.
                      "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ponygirl View Post
                        A good thought too Equine LVR! I'll let you all know if Carracci does what I want him to with regards to this mare. I also have a Cardento mare in foal to him. I'll report back about this foal too if folks have any interest.
                        I would love to know what you get! I have a friend with a Riverman mare that he might suit.
                        Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
                        " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
                        Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Have either of these two - and forgive me I haven't searched - been bred to produce "hunters" - ? That seems to be the OP post - are there offspring in the hunters? I do much like the more jumper bred on a good hunter type mare - trying to gather information too.
                          I find - only looking at the conformation shots - Ralando a bit thick - I am partial to the conformation of the throat latch -

                          Thanks for for introducing these stallions - I had not heard of them.
                          "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



                          www.dontlookbackfarm.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            3Dogs, I'll answer for each stallion individually as each have made their own mark. Carracci has been bred almost exclusively for jumpers to date. 2013 will mark the first year offspring are due from hunter type mares. Despite that fact, the Kelly's have a handful of offspring that have already been labeled as top hunter prospects by BNTs who have visited their farm. In large part, this is due to Carracci's modern type, a very free shoulder and the jump which he has so strongly inherited from his Holsteiner lineage, which consistenly sits atop the Hunter performance sire rankings.

                            Knowing this market, I specifically quizzed Christina about Carracci's ability to have gone into the hunter ring. What a huge smile I received! If it were not for USEF roles prohibiting a 12-14 year old from riding a stallion in the hunters, you most certainly would have seen this pair in the hunter ring and in Derbies. Here are a couple of pictures of Carracci over fences and even more impressive, Carracci and a 12-year old Christina at her first show with Carracci after just buying him.

                            https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                            https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Od16cSjhc
                            www.avenir-farm.com

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Yes, I am interested in looking at these stallions for hunter type foals. Also in their pedigrees.

                              My mare is the quintessential hunter. Almost too flat of a mover and very petite. There have been discussions about when the really good movers lack that really good knee jerking jump scope? That's my mare.

                              So yes, while Ralando is bigger and thicker, that may not hurt my mare. But he doesn't have any offspring yet, where Caracci has a few, and the ones he has had are quite athletic. But I don't need refining, which some people are using Caracci for.

                              Keep up the thoughts!

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
                                3Dogs, I'll answer for each stallion individually as each have made their own mark. Carracci has been bred almost exclusively for jumpers to date. 2013 will mark the first year offspring are due from hunter type mares. Despite that fact, the Kelly's have a handful of offspring that have already been labeled as top hunter prospects by BNTs who have visited their farm. In large part, this is due to Carracci's modern type, a very free shoulder and the jump which he has so strongly inherited from his Holsteiner lineage, which consistenly sits atop the Hunter performance sire rankings.

                                Knowing this market, I specifically quizzed Christina about Carracci's ability to have gone into the hunter ring. What a huge smile I received! If it were not for USEF roles prohibiting a 12-14 year old from riding a stallion in the hunters, you most certainly would have seen this pair in the hunter ring and in Derbies. Here are a couple of pictures of Carracci over fences and even more impressive, Carracci and a 12-year old Christina at her first show with Carracci after just buying him.

                                https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                                https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_Od16cSjhc
                                Boy was that video fun to watch !!! And you go Christina!!!! Wowzer. Methinks he did quite save her on the oxer off the sharp turn!! Thanks for sharing !!
                                "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



                                www.dontlookbackfarm.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  These boys are both Holsteiner. Are either of them approved?

                                  I looked at the photos and really love Carracci's type. He is compact and powerful looking, just like his sire. It is nice to see a Caretino son in the US. I hope his owner has him approved AHHA.
                                  Last edited by Maryanne Nicpon; Dec. 13, 2012, 08:04 PM. Reason: Adding info
                                  Maryanne Nicpon
                                  Minglewood Sport Horses
                                  Ballston Spa, NY

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Maryanne Nicpon View Post
                                    These boys are both Holsteiner. Are either of them approved?

                                    I looked at the photos and really love Carracci's type. He is compact and powerful looking, just like his sire. It is nice to see a Caretino son in the US. I hope his owner has him approved AHHA.
                                    Maryanne, Carracci is approved with the Holsteiner Verband and several other German registries. His performance career combined with his successful 70-day test (finishing 3rd in jumping) allow his offspring to be registered with a number of registries here in the US. For mare owners' ease and the broadest reach among the diverse mare base here, we had both boys inspected and licensed with sBs last month.

                                    Obviously, AHHA is a possibility. PM me for more info.
                                    www.avenir-farm.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by 3Dogs View Post
                                      Boy was that video fun to watch !!! And you go Christina!!!! Wowzer. Methinks he did quite save her on the oxer off the sharp turn!! Thanks for sharing !!
                                      I know! Don't you love it?!? I never fail to smile when I watch that video. Amazingly, Christina had only started riding two years earlier. Her mom tells some very sweet stories of Carracci and Christina. My personal favorite is Christina falling asleep in Carracci's stall at a show and her Mom and Dad finding her with Carracci standing protectively over her .
                                      www.avenir-farm.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        3Dogs, regarding Ralando... he's a Freshman sire so obviously there is risk. BUT, when you consider the horse, the pedigree and his career as a hunter, I think the relative risk is fairly low when he's paired with a hunter type mare. Ralando is a direct reflection of his pedigree, which like Carracci, is deeply rooted in Holstein. Typewise, he is definitely not thick, especially when you compare him to many of the sires currently dubbed as hunter sires. If I had to describe his size overall, I'd say he's medium plus. He should pair perfectly with most hunter mares.

                                        Look at the pics and watch the video and make your own assessment, but as a hunter on course, Ralando, imho, was poetry in motion. Forward, consistant pace with a big ground covering canter. Impressive use of his front and hind legs coupled with a big athletic and scopey bascule that set him apart from many in the hunter ring. Really a joy to watch.

                                        Ralando over a fence: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                                        Ralando with Arly Golombek in the A/Os: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKK-mJQ_nY8

                                        I hope this helps and answers your questions about both boys!
                                        www.avenir-farm.com

                                        Comment

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