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spinoff from h/j forum: WB brands

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  • spinoff from h/j forum: WB brands

    i am posting here cuz in my view kinda follows a breeding type question.

    my question is this...if you have a horse that falls under 2 brands,how do you know what brand to do?.
    if that makes any sense.

    my horse i have now is a dutch wb x
    i wouldn't be able to brand him as he is not full DWB,but if i could im not sure what i would brand him as he falls under 2 brands dutch and oldenburg.
    sire is CSH DWB and grand sire is oldenburg.
    mare on sires side is just shown as WB on pedigree(no breed specific)
    would you go by the current horse's sires parents? i always thought oldenburg was in the category of dutch wb breeds.or do i have this all wrong.
    just kinda confused and curious.
    any light shed on this would be great.
    http://myridingjourney.blogspot.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by my_doran View Post
    i am posting here cuz in my view kinda follows a breeding type question.

    my question is this...if you have a horse that falls under 2 brands,how do you know what brand to do?.
    if that makes any sense.

    my horse i have now is a dutch wb x
    i wouldn't be able to brand him as he is not full DWB,but if i could im not sure what i would brand him as he falls under 2 brands dutch and oldenburg.
    sire is CSH DWB and grand sire is oldenburg.
    mare on sires side is just shown as WB on pedigree(no breed specific)
    would you go by the current horse's sires parents? i always thought oldenburg was in the category of dutch wb breeds.or do i have this all wrong.
    just kinda confused and curious.
    any light shed on this would be great.
    Who is the sire? What registries is he "approved" for breeding with, not just registered as. Also what the mare approved for breeding? The answer to those questios will let you know what if any option you have available to you to have your horse registered and branded.
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    • #3
      First, Oldenburg is a German registry, has nothing to do with Dutch.

      Warmblood registries can be confusing. It's not so much what breed/breeds your horse's parents are, but what registry or registries they were APPROVED for breeding. Approved and registered are 2 different things. First you need to see what registries the sire of your horse has been approved for. Then the dam of your horse would need to be presented and approved by one of those registries. Then your horse could be eligible to be presented and registered. If your horse's sire is not APPROVED anywhere, then all you can get is a COP(certificate of pedigree). Also forgot to ad, if your horse's dam is not eligible for a main book with the registry your horse's sire is approved for, then your horse would also still only be eligible for a COP. Your comment about her just being listed as a wb, makes me think she may fall into that category.
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      • Original Poster

        #4
        sire was dorian grey of lisronuagh stables(bc canada).an eventing stallion.i was given a registry certif by breeder that was a registry to CSHA(canadian sport horse assoc).was able to breed with full pb or non pb.
        i had checked into registering my horse to the csha awhile back as i was told by stallion owner he would be registerable. csha told me i couldn't cuz there was to much crosses in breeding.
        my mare was a rescue and had unknown breeding,but by her looks was a appy/qh. the mare i was referring too in OP was the sires mom who is glen apple.who i have never met or know nothing about.
        hope im not being too confusing.
        btw both my mare and dorian grey have both passed.
        sire is under the www.allbreedpedigree/dorian+grey5

        it sure is confusing everafterfarm
        http://myridingjourney.blogspot.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Most of the WB registries will only allow you to brand your horse with their brand if your horse is registered with that association/registry. From what you say, it does not sound like your horse is eligible to be registered with any of the breeds except for possibly CSHA. I am not familiar with that registry so can't speak to what they allow or dont, but in the ATA if the stallion is approved even if the mare isn't allowed for registry the foal is elig for "part bred" papers (or Certificate of Pedigree) which isn't really "registered" but just a tracking of their papers/pedigree. In the ATA there is a part bred brand, but not many use it. You may want to check with one of the American Warmblood registries (either AWS or AWR) to see if you can get papers that route and a brand - or don't worry about the brand and just enjoy your horse .
          Emerald Acres standing the ATA, Trakehner Verband, sBs, RPSI, and ISR/OLD NA Approved Stallion, Tatendrang. Visit us at our Facebook Farm Page as well!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by my_doran View Post
            i am posting here cuz in my view kinda follows a breeding type question.

            my question is this...if you have a horse that falls under 2 brands,how do you know what brand to do?.
            if that makes any sense.

            my horse i have now is a dutch wb x
            i wouldn't be able to brand him as he is not full DWB,but if i could im not sure what i would brand him as he falls under 2 brands dutch and oldenburg.
            sire is CSH DWB and grand sire is oldenburg.
            mare on sires side is just shown as WB on pedigree(no breed specific)
            would you go by the current horse's sires parents? i always thought oldenburg was in the category of dutch wb breeds.or do i have this all wrong.
            just kinda confused and curious.
            any light shed on this would be great.
            First of all, the designation for Dutch WB is either KWPN or NRPS (depending on which Dutch WB registry you are referring to). DWB is the designation for Danish WB.

            Secondly, a horse can only be branded by a registry if it meets the studbook requirements of that registry. For most WB registries, that means the dam must be approved for breeding by that registry, as well as the sire. Some registries (Oldenburg, for instance) may register a foal sired by a stallion not on the registry's stallion roster, but only if the stallion is fully approved by an Oldenburg-acknowledged registry, and he has met full performance requirements in accordance with Oldenburg's own requirements.

            Thirdly, a horse can only be branded by the organization that legally holds the mark (brand, logo, etc.). For "breed" brands, that is almost always the organization that issued the horse's registration papers.

            Since it sounds as though your horse does not have a full pedigree of approved stallions and mares as far as KWPN or Oldenburg go, I assume he doesn't hold registration papers from either registry - and therefore cannot be branded with either brand.

            Comment


            • #7
              OP, sounds like if you can't use the CSHA, you may be out of luck. The fact that your mare doesn't have a provable pedigree, she is not eligible for any main books with any registry. Also even if you could prove her pedigree, if she does have appy or qh blood in her, she still would not be eligible for any main books as none of the euro regs(or their NA counterparts) accept those types of blood. Your other shot would be just to go somewhere and get a COP, if a brand is that important to you he may be able to get a partial brand with the reg his sire is approved for. The dam's info would be listed as unknown. If your horse is a gelding, and he's a great horse for you and you love him, who really cares if he has a brand or not.
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              • #8
                In order to know whether your horse is registerable, you have to understand the process, so I will try to explain it here (I hope I'm clear, but I'm battling a migraine so bear with me).

                A foal is always registered and branded according to the registry with whom the momma-mare is Registered and Approved with.

                Warmbloods MUST be approved before they can produce registerable offspring - stallions go through a Stallion Performance Test; Mares go through in-hand inspections and sometimes a Mare Performance Test. Only Registered horses can undergo a SPT or MPT/Approval.

                People who use unregistered mares who, therefore, cannot be inspected/Approved (because they're unregistered), run the very real risk the Registry will not accept the foal.

                Some registries will issue a certificate of pedigree (COP), but they don't really have to. Horses with a COP can never be inspected for breeding approval and can never produce babies that can be registerable. This is not so important for a colt, because he can be gelded and go along his merry way. It's more problematic for a filly, especially if she grows up to be an athletically gifted beauty. A COP is not registration - A COP merely serves to provide you a legal documentation that this horse is named XYZ, it's birth date was roughly April 15, 2002, some have the horse's markings listed, and the paper says the horse is legally owned by you, so a COP is better than having nothing at all! A COP mare can never be presented for breeding approval and can never have registerable offspring. This is because a COP is not proof of lineage, and proof of lineage is required for breeding.


                So, terminology is important here:

                REGISTRATION = birth certificate and legal documentation this horse belongs to ABC Registry and has proof on record via DNA parentage that he/she decended from X Mare and Y stallion. A horse can only be registered with 1 registry, by law. The birth certificate, aka Registration Papers or Passport, states the breed affiliation, pedigree, birth date, breeder, and location of birth. It also identifies the horse's markings.

                Not to be confused with:

                APPROVAL = a secondary process whereby the horse is presented before a judging panel for inspection and scoring to determine whether the quality is deemed fit to be part of the breeding herd. The registry the mare is approved with is the registry her foals are registered with. A stallion also undergoes an approval process in order to have registerable foals. Approval papers or Passport are issued as a secondary piece of identification. Breeding approval is also called being entered into the Studbook. The Studbook is a record account of all horses active in the breeding herd, which are those horses contributing their genetics to future generations. The approval papers notate the horse is entered into the studbook. Some registries have multiple levels of books for mares (main mare book reserved for the best mares, followed by a mare book, etc on down), and these are marked on the approval papers. Any predicates (awards) the stallion or mare has earned due to performance, quality of offspring and performance of offspring, is also marked on the studbook.

                COP = Certificate of Pedigree, or partial pedigree, legal paperwork proving horse identification, name, and ownership only.

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                What this means to you: Even if the Sire of your horse is Approved with the Canadian Sport Horse, the fact that your horse descended from a mare who was neither registered or approved with any warmblood or sport horse registry means your horse cannot be registered.

                Your situation outlines and serves to school the countless individuals on this Discussion Board who ask questions on this very topic and the ongoing argument of whether registration is important or not, or whether getting a mare approved is important or not. As you have personally found out, a past individual's uneducated actions have left you with a horse that cannot be registered.

                Still, I do suggest you ask Canadian Sport Horse whether they'd be willing to issue you a COP. A COP serves itself well enough to serve as a legal paper that proves identification by markings, and your ownership that is registered with the Canadian Livestock Records Corp. The COP might contain the sire's lineage, but it will only, at best, just put the name of your horse's mother and leave her entire pedigree blank, because her genetic heritage is unknown.

                Hope this helps!
                Last edited by rodawn; Dec. 7, 2012, 03:48 PM. Reason: waiting for the Advil to kick in....
                Practice! Patience! Persistence!
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                • #9
                  PS: The Dutch do not brand their horses. The KWPN and subsequently the KWPN-NA have not branded their foals for at least 15 years now.

                  The other part of your question about the oldenburg thing... that is just noting the types of warmbloods that made up your horse's sire's genetic heritage. But if you notice, he was registered according to his mother's registry.

                  Also note, a stallion can be Approved with multiple registries, which is why you hear about stallions who are "approved with Hanoverian, KWPN, Oldenburg, Westfalen, Canadian warmblood, Canadian sport horse, Danish" yadda yadda. It just means the stallion is good enough that he passes the strict criteria for those registries which means mares in those registries can use his services. Doing this allows fresh genetics into the studbook and is only done if the stallion (or mare) is thought to have something special worth contributing to the herdbook.

                  So, while your horse's sire was Dutch, he was approved with the Canadian Sport Horse, therefore Canadian Sport Horse mares can use his services.
                  Last edited by rodawn; Dec. 7, 2012, 05:01 PM.
                  Practice! Patience! Persistence!
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                    PS: The Dutch do not brand their horses. The KWPN and subsequently the KWPN-NA have not branded their horses for at least 15 years now.
                    They may not have branded in Europe for quite some time, but they were still branding in NA just a few years ago - a friend of mine had her mare branded at the GA inspection. IIRC, it was only about 3-4 years back.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Only stallions and mares entered into the studbook of the KWPN-NA are branded. Foals are not branded. So, it's good to clarify this, thanks for pointing it out.

                      All other registries - Hanoverian, Westfalen, Holstein, Canadian Warmblood, all brand their foals upon registration. Canadian warmblood is optional.

                      From the KWPN-NA website:
                      Studbook (stb) - Foalbook and Register A mares, geldings and stallions are eligible for Studbook Inspection at age three or older. Register A stallions must complete all requirements for approval (radiographs, endoscopy and/or performance). Register A mares and geldings must complete those requirements not met by their sire (see box below). Upon successful presentation, mares and stallions are accepted into the studbook but geldings remain in or move to the Foalbook since they are not used for breeding. All successful horses will receive updated papers and may be branded with the lion brand on the hip.
                      Last edited by rodawn; Dec. 7, 2012, 05:02 PM.
                      Practice! Patience! Persistence!
                      http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
                      https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        thanx for ALL the great info and explanations.very helpful.
                        it wasn't that a brand was important or top priority.it was just a wondering thought after reading on the h/j forums about" identifying a brand"thread and someone posted a list of brand logos and the little brain started to think.. if i could brand him or wanted to in future what would he fit into.which turned into a pedigree/breed question and so on.well you get the idea..i do understand now how it goes now,by all the wonderful post replies.
                        http://myridingjourney.blogspot.com

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                        • #13
                          KWPN brands geldings too - not just stallions or mares entered into the Studbook.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rodawn View Post
                            From the KWPN-NA website:
                            Studbook (stb) - Foalbook and Register A mares, geldings and stallions are eligible for Studbook Inspection at age three or older. Register A stallions must complete all requirements for approval (radiographs, endoscopy and/or performance). Register A mares and geldings must complete those requirements not met by their sire (see box below). Upon successful presentation, mares and stallions are accepted into the studbook but geldings remain in or move to the Foalbook since they are not used for breeding. All successful horses will receive updated papers and may be branded with the lion brand on the hip.

                            This has been true for 20 years.

                            Thanks for your long explanation, rodawn. I think that if folks are going to go to the trouble of breeding a horse, they should follow through with the bureaucratic stuff.

                            I bred a KWPN colt using a JC mare and an Approved stallion. Their book was open to TBs then, but she had to go to an inspection and Coltness had to go to one of his own at 3, too.

                            There was no KWPN vs. KWPN-NA at the time. You got a Dutch jury and a translator. IMO, horses were evaluated as dressage prospects or perhaps show jumpers. The NA hunter market or "sport horse" market had not yet exerted its power and there were no North Americans on the jury.

                            I did all that because it helped out a lot of people and the horses. Mare got a good career as a worthwhile broodmare rather than just a show horse. Stallion owner got to add Coltness to Daddy's list, and ColtThing himself got the best burn-on-the-butt and version of his pedigree he was allowed, just in case he ever needed to be sold. Oh, and I made the KWPN print the mare's lineage on Coltness' papers. I wanted anyone interested in the TB's contribution to be able to see that.
                            The armchair saddler
                            Politically Pro-Cat

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mvp View Post
                              I think that if folks are going to go to the trouble of breeding a horse, they should follow through with the bureaucratic stuff.

                              I also agree. It takes an enormous amount of work to be a breeder. It's just not worth it unless you have good mares who have been inspected by your registry of choice and been approved. Not only do you get great information from the judges regarding your mare's merits, but a lot of the time, you get tidbits of information from the judges on what stallions would go smashingly well with your mares.

                              Then, after you spend literally hundreds of hours researching just the right stallion(s) for your mare(s), thousands of dollars getting your mare(s) bred, wait impatiently during her pregnancy whilst going to the trouble to formulate the perfect feeding/nutritional regimen for her, plus vaccination/deworming and other healthcare regimen... then the long-awaited day of the birth of the foal arrives and you spend ENORMOUS amounts of time training babydoll to wear a halter, lead and be otherwise a good little citizen ........ and then you need to sell said babydoll whilst hoping you recover at the very least your expenses, plus a little bit for your efforts.

                              Why on earth would anyone go through all that trouble just to get an unregistered foal that can legally be viewed as having a dubious heritage (because it is not PROVEN via registration papers that stand behind DNA parentage verification in a studbook that records generations-worth of history for each foal they register) that can be sold for a pittance compared to what being affiliated with an elite registry can get for the same foal? A foal that can only sold as "unregistered" for $3-4k doesn't even cover costs, especially if you review the thread that was asking this very question - it costs at minimum 7-10k to raise a weanie.

                              Contrary to what some people say where a lot of riders don't care about the registry, I beg to differ, because in my experience the top riders do indeed care. My particular beef is against breeders who don't necessarily care for quality or pedigree or registration and these are the horses that are thrust out into the market for the amateurs to choose from. In my opinion, it's not the best situation for any amateur rider to get a horse with iffy background that they are forced to struggle with. Once in a while an amateur rider finds a gem amongst the iffy horses that they adore, have a ton of fun with and can show to their heart's content, but many riders end up with horses with a lot of challenges and struggles and we all hear those (frequently told) stories. It certainly doesn't work for the top riders. And, frankly, every single one of the dedicated breeders in this world also wants to say they have bred the horse that XYZ Rider took to the Pan Am Games or better yet, to the World Cup or Olympics!

                              I'm fortunate enough to be in contact with a goodly number of top riders in the Show Jumping and Dressage in various countries around the world and believe you me, they DO care about pedigree and registration. All the top riders and their students attend those elite auctions held in every country including the USA and Canada and most will only buy foals or youngsters who had the registry and pedigree backing them. The top riders are highly educated about what lineages are making it or breaking down in their particular sport and they shop with wide-open eyes for not only quality, but also pedigree and they want a horse whose pedigree is verified and backed by the registry (and most registries require DNA verification now in order to prove their studbooks).

                              I don't often get involved in the arguments regarding whether breeders think riders care or don't care their prospects are registered - I tend to just laugh, because I happen to know the young up-and-coming riders who have big aspirations for the big leagues and those riders who are already there at the top will ride nothing but a pedigreed horse with legally proven parentage because they don't want to waste their time on an unknown who may or may not get them where they want to go. There are certain lineages that just improve the odds that this offspring will get to the top and win at the top against the other best of the best of the world and the best riders use that knowledge to their every advantage.

                              Why else does everyone watch what the elite riders are riding and noting the pedigrees? And then if you notice, those stallions and mare lines are used by dedicated breeders, hoping to produce the next big thing. It's why everyone hangs on every move Totilas makes... and uses his sire or his grandsire in their program or the next Donnerhall grandkid, or the next Sandro Hit dressage superstar, or the next Quattro or Ramiro that will revolutionize the jumper world ... Because dedicated professional breeders are watching and taking notes and the riders are riding those top lines.
                              Practice! Patience! Persistence!
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                              • #16
                                Good post, rodawn.

                                And another thing!

                                The "I don't care Who His Daddy (or Mommy**) is" and "Why don't US breeders do a better job?" are two halves of a vicious circle. If you brag about how "you don't ride the piece of paper," then where's the incentive for breeders to put in their time and money?

                                And another, another thing!

                                I really wish we'd pay more attention to mares' performance, if we aren't going to be able to breed mare lines. The mare contributes so much to Baby, before and after birth, IMO. Yet too many either breed their mare in some vain attempt to give her a job or don't develop a mare fully as a performer before putting her out to make babies.
                                The armchair saddler
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