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Where are all the top quality hunter foals in the US???

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  • #41
    Borntorun, can you share the methods you used to search for your prospect? Internet, publication, word of mouth, horse shows, etc. ? Very curious about how shopper searches for horse given all of the search options available these days. I raise dressage horses primarily, btw, but interested in your response just the same.
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    • Original Poster

      #42
      I think my expectations are realistic....

      Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
      I am not a breeder but I think your expectations are off -- and I doubt very much you are going to find a top-quality 2 year old for less than 15k. Nice weanlings seem to go for 7.5-12k. At 2 the breeders are better off hanging on to them, getting them started US next year and selling for $25-30k than selling to you for $15k.
      I'm not trying to find a horse for ANY particular price really. Just a good prospect that won't break the bank. I don't care if the horse is straight out of the pasture and unhandled if a 10 mover and pretty! I paid 9K for a gorgeous moving WB yearling 5 years ago, with clean xrays and now that same filly would be more like 15-18K in a "supposed" down market. I think 20K for an unbroke 1-2 year old is crazy... Especially when you look at other disciplines besides hunters and those babies are broke and older for the same price. There are some gorgeous QH's out there who are 2-3 years old, broke and showing, with clean films, for 15K. Just wondering whats driving the hunter market to be so pricey for unproven, youngstock? Is it because there are so few of them with the kind of movement and jump people are wanting???? Is it because the competitions have become that much more competitive?

      Back in my day, we all rode OTTB's!


      I would guess that most breeders would want to SELL in their weanling/yearling phase to minimize risk and not have YEARS of feeding/training before they get any profits????

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      • Original Poster

        #43
        Originally posted by Indy-lou View Post
        Borntorun, can you share the methods you used to search for your prospect? Internet, publication, word of mouth, horse shows, etc. ? Very curious about how shopper searches for horse given all of the search options available these days. I raise dressage horses primarily, btw, but interested in your response just the same.
        As an adult with more than 35 years experience in the horse world, I don't use a trainer to find horses for myself. I rely on my personal experience/judgement, for better or for worse, so I rely on all the modern day technologies.

        Horse shopping is so subjective and everyone has an opinion so I limit my input from others to just a few friends that I know share my taste in horses. It can get VERY confusing talking to eventers, dressage riders, foxhunters, hunter/jumper people about what they do or don't like in a horse. I would NOT recommend that most people shop without an "expert" they can trust. I've bought at least 20 horses over the past 10-15 years, from every possible source including auctions, so I'm comfortable doing on-line shopping.

        The internet is a great source for an experienced, educated horse person and there are a lot of adult ami's like myself out there that don't have deep pockets to shop in Europe or pay the big name trainers to "find" their next perfect mount. I have found word of mouth to be my LEAST best method for finding horses because of different tastes

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        • #44
          I haven't read all the responses .... but did anyone mention Windswept Farm (owned by the Mulhollands) in Orangetown, Ontario, or Woodhaven/Crooked Creek in Manitoba. I understand astute American buyers have been finding excellent hunter prospects there, who are doing very well on the US hunter circuit. Definitely worth a call!
          Sunny Days Hanoverians
          http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com

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          • Original Poster

            #45
            EXACTLY!!! As a buyer yourself, you get it. Sellers need to understand that the buyer is taking a HUGE gamble by even looking at a yearling. Most people don't own their own farms so purchasing a weanling/yearling gelding and having them go lame at 2 or 3 for the rest of it's life is a definite possibility and a financial disaster for most horse owners.

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            • Original Poster

              #46
              Very true Kathy! He is lovely and could easily do the conformation hunters with those looks! At least in my opinion

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              • #47
                Also broaden your breed perspective, as you may have tunnel vision in what breeds have what you need. I can think of two large Saddlebred breeding farms in the Midwest (Callaway Hills in Missouri and Reedannland in Iowa) who from time to time have a more 'hunterish' young horse than what they are breeding for. So far, only CH has publicly stated and has a track record of welcoming and knowing what sport discipline buyers are looking for. I happen to know (through conversation with him directly) that the founder/patriarch of the Reedannland family is receptive but does not have the time/inclination to deliberately seek that market. Most of the day to day operations of that farm now are handled by his Son, and they do have a FB page.
                Jeanie
                Jeanie
                RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Indy-lou View Post
                  Borntorun, can you share the methods you used to search for your prospect? Internet, publication, word of mouth, horse shows, etc. ? Very curious about how shopper searches for horse given all of the search options available these days. I raise dressage horses primarily, btw, but interested in your response just the same.
                  I will share my experience if you are looking for general opinions. The biggest thing for us both buying and selling has been FB. We have sold all but one of our horses through people who first saw them on our FB. Now we also have a youtube page, are in the process of revamping our website and participate in other online horse forums. We have paid for one ad over the past 4 years on warmbloodsforsale and only got tire kicker type emails. We have just set up a new FB page since we have now reached our friend limit. Now we are gaining word of mouth from people who originally found us on FB and are sending friends and clients to us, usually through friend suggestions on FB, where they can see what our program is all about. This has been huge for our young horse program.

                  In addition to selling on FB we have also bought several horses there as well. We bought our daughters Lg. show pony and just recently bought her a prospect from clear a cross the country. My mom's new dressage horse also came from Fb too. All horses we more than likely wouldn't have known about without the use of FB.

                  What I like most about FB is you are able to follow farms and get an idea about their day to day interaction with horses. I have come to respect and look forward to updates from many. It is like a little window into their barn where you are able to keep up with what is new and what is happening now.
                  I know it is not for everyone but we are very thankful to have it as a marketing tool and even better a way to stay connected to many of our horsey friends.
                  Worth A Shot Farm
                  Finding the horse of your dreams, is always Worth A Shot!
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                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    I get it. I feed my own horses and run my own barn. I know exactly what it costs and it's extremely expensive for land and feed in the East now. I'm looking at yearlings because I can't find what I want for less than 20K in an older horse. It wasn't a debate over why BROKE 2 year olds cost more. It was about why unbroke 2 year old horses cost so much more than yearlings.

                    Theres still a lot of risk to hold onto a nice weanling from the breeders point of view in hopes of selling it for 25K as a rising 3 year old, don't you think?

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                    • #50
                      I am not sure that unbroken two yr olds cost that much more than yearlings- I think there are far fewer for sale. We are much more likely to let a talented weanling and yearling go at a reasonable price than a two year old. At rising 2, I have worked them through the shoot, sat on them, fooled around on the lunge, ect- I've put time and effort in and can "see the light at the end of the tunnel". It's not much more risk to sit on them for another year or two until they are worth real money- and a top quality, pretty, good moving 3/4 yr old with a super jump can bring more than 25k.

                      Interestingly, I find the jumper market far different than the hunter market. Jumper buyers seem to understand that top quality is expensive and hard to find - the jumper babies are mostly gone before they hit the ground (and for more money), even though at 4 a good jumper young horse will be on par price wise with a superstar hunter prospect.

                      Have others found the market for foals/young horses far different (and more predictable) for jumper bred than hunter bred ?
                      www.threewishesfarm.com
                      https://www.facebook.com/ThreeWishesFarm
                      Expecting 2017 foals by Vagabond de la Pomme, Cornet Obolensky, Zirocco Blue, Catoki and Christian.

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Borntorun View Post
                        I would guess that most breeders would want to SELL in their weanling/yearling phase to minimize risk and not have YEARS of feeding/training before they get any profits????
                        Agreed! But we have found it hard to sell WB yearlings as most people just don't want to finish growing them up. Or they want them for a small fraction of what they sell for once under saddle. So we don't really try to sell babies or yearlings.
                        Patty
                        www.rivervalefarm.com
                        Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by RanchoAdobe View Post
                          I am not sure that unbroken two yr olds cost that much more than yearlings- I think there are far fewer for sale. We are much more likely to let a talented weanling and yearling go at a reasonable price than a two year old. At rising 2, I have worked them through the shoot, sat on them, fooled around on the lunge, ect- I've put time and effort in and can "see the light at the end of the tunnel". It's not much more risk to sit on them for another year or two until they are worth real money- and a top quality, pretty, good moving 3/4 yr old with a super jump can bring more than 25k.

                          Interestingly, I find the jumper market far different than the hunter market. Jumper buyers seem to understand that top quality is expensive and hard to find - the jumper babies are mostly gone before they hit the ground (and for more money), even though at 4 a good jumper young horse will be on par price wise with a superstar hunter prospect.

                          Have others found the market for foals/young horses far different (and more predictable) for jumper bred than hunter bred ?
                          We have actually found that they are pretty much on a par. The mare that we have used to produce hunter foals Sakura Hill Czola- http://www.sakurahillfarm.com/czola-...ce-xx.html-has consistently produced such high quality foals that hers are quickly snapped up- either before birth or within 2 months of birth. We have bred her to well-known Hunter Derby sires (Cunningham, Crown Affair, CQuito) so have not skimped on quality or talent in that regard. We are adding Kaiserin (http://www.sakurahillfarm.com/kaiser...lantaan.htmlto) the lineup of hunter-producing foals as she too has produced beautifully-built foals with the sweetest temperaments and a built-in love of jumping. There is interest in using her to produce a custom foal by Westporte. Our other Alla'Czar mare is a maiden and quite a different type, being linebred on the New Twist line. We see her being matched with an Apiro, Livello, or others who will produce a heavier foal. We have no doubts as to jumping ability.Other mares can be added or subtracted from this group, depending upon the sires chosen.

                          The semen to produce the hunter foals is typically more expensive, being to a large extent domestic. We can use fresh in some instances which, if all goes well,reduces costs by breeding on the farm. The semen for our jumper foals is occasionally less expensive, although it requires the use of our vet clinic, upping costs dramatically, especially if all does not go well on the first go-around.

                          Our foals are priced according to quality expected or actual, not on cost so the hunter and jumper foals are priced on an equal scale. Inquiries for jumper foals frequently come from Canada, where pros are more likely to ride NA-bred horses than in the US. They also seem to be more willing to put the early work in. We actually find that the hunter foals more frequently are sold in utero or as a custom than the jumper foals. We think that there are those who would like to have the opportunity to have a high quality hunter without the high cost of an older prospect and are willing to take the risk, after careful research. We are fortunate to have both Wellington and Ocala as an outlet for our prospects and the YHS is providing an excellent venue for the horses to get both exposure and experience. This probably is more true for the jumper prospects than the hunters- but then our hunters have always sold before they have reached the age to take to the YHS, so I really shouldn't say!

                          This is really just musing and I look forward to reading what others say.

                          To the OP, I too was curious as to HOW you are conducting your search. Thank you for sharing. There are so many fine breeders and prospects out there that I am sure that you will be successful in that search, although I think that your $15,000 budget for a yearling is a floor for the quality you are seeking.
                          Last edited by Sakura Hill Farm; Dec. 6, 2012, 08:01 PM.
                          Sakura Hill Farm
                          Now on Facebook

                          Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

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                          • #53
                            Forgive me if this is off topic, but a couple of things said here have me thinking about the market in general. I think a couple of years ago it was safe to say the market was down, but a few things have happened to bring about a correction. Some people got out of breeding, some downsized, some re-evaluated and upgraded their mare base.

                            At the same time, buyers have gotten more knowledgeable. Many of the shoppers I've met are more aware of bloodlines than ever before, have done their homework and are more willing to shop for young horses in North America.

                            Simultaneously, Facebook has helped transform access to sellers and horses. There are a numer of breed- and discipline-specific groups there for selling horses. One really nice feature is that in a few clicks a prospective buyer can see other horses you have, your history, your facility, and even 'friend' and contact others who've purchased from you.

                            All of these things have transformed the market, IMHO. The times they are a changin'
                            Kendra -- Runningwater Warmbloods
                            Home of EM Raleska (Rascalino/ Warkant) and Donatella M (Furstenball/ Jazz Time)
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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Borntorun View Post
                              EXACTLY!!! As a buyer yourself, you get it. Sellers need to understand that the buyer is taking a HUGE gamble by even looking at a yearling. Most people don't own their own farms so purchasing a weanling/yearling gelding and having them go lame at 2 or 3 for the rest of it's life is a definite possibility and a financial disaster for most horse owners.
                              You won't get much sympathy talking to breeder/sellers about "gambles"....
                              "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Borntorun View Post
                                ...It wasn't a debate over why BROKE 2 year olds cost more. It was about why unbroke 2 year old horses cost so much more than yearlings.

                                Theres still a lot of risk to hold onto a nice weanling from the breeders point of view in hopes of selling it for 25K as a rising 3 year old, don't you think?
                                Typically, price rises from yearling price to the three year-old price, but hold pretty steady from yearling to two. But then again it depends on the youngster. We have a 2011 Canturo filly that is a definite keeper for us but as a point of comparison, we had a friend that felt that $15000 was too high for her as a weanling and we would not part with her for less than that. Even then, we were very reluctant to sell her and were considering it only because it was a friend. She has never had an ugly moment and as never lost the super star quality and athleticism that we and several pros saw in her as a weanling. There is no risk for us in keeping her unless she dies in some unfortunate accident as her bloodlines make her an outstanding candidate for the broodmare band, indeed, as a replacement for her talented dam.

                                Or it may occur that the breeder is perfectly willing to keep and produce a given foal and only an appealing offer will procure the foal.

                                There are hunter foals that breeders have that show that same "X factor" and only exigent financial or logistical circumstances (and this does happen), friendship, an excellent show home or BNH will compel the breeder to part with the star at a young age and at a reasonable price. We had this occur in the instance of our Sakura Hill Czaritza, Czola's 2011 Crown Affair filly whom we intended to keep As one trainer once told me when we were looking for pony hunter for our daughter, at that time 10, "it all depends on the day and the tree you are standing under."

                                She also told us when we were looking to be on our best behavior as we were being looked over as much as the pony was!

                                Keep looking- you may be under the right tree!
                                Last edited by Sakura Hill Farm; Dec. 6, 2012, 11:46 AM.
                                Sakura Hill Farm
                                Now on Facebook

                                Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

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                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
                                  Or it may occur that the breeder is perfectly willing to keep and produce a given foal and only an appealing offer will procure the foal.
                                  ^This
                                  "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

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                                  • #57
                                    Borntorun, I PM'd you with two very affordable prospects.
                                    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
                                    Breeding & Sales
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                                    • #58
                                      "Most people don't own their own farms..."

                                      I was told by a breeder that they found this a major block to selling babies as people had to board their babies which of course was costly and often in nonbaby friendly environments (like a show barn). I always wondered if breeders would be willing to board baby (for a boarding fee) after sale (as long as said baby was insured of course....) Same wirh getting them broken and going as it seems like some breeders already have good connections with starting horses or live in an area where all that is a lot cheaper.

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                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by omare View Post
                                        "Most people don't own their own farms..."

                                        I was told by a breeder that they found this a major block to selling babies as people had to board their babies which of course was costly and often in nonbaby friendly environments (like a show barn). I always wondered if breeders would be willing to board baby (for a boarding fee) after sale (as long as said baby was insured of course....) Same wirh getting them broken and going as it seems like some breeders already have good connections with starting horses or live in an area where all that is a lot cheaper.
                                        I know I offer boarding on any foal I sell as well as other breeders who offer the same. (Resident poster Spike comes to mind for instance.)
                                        www.EquusMagnificus.ca
                                        Breeding & Sales
                                        Facebook | YouTube

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by omare View Post
                                          "Most people don't own their own farms..."

                                          I was told by a breeder that they found this a major block to selling babies as people had to board their babies which of course was costly and often in nonbaby friendly environments (like a show barn). I always wondered if breeders would be willing to board baby (for a boarding fee) after sale (as long as said baby was insured of course....) Same wirh getting them broken and going as it seems like some breeders already have good connections with starting horses or live in an area where all that is a lot cheaper.
                                          I think most breeders would consider this or would help you find a breeder who would. I'm boarding a horse I bred and sold right now.
                                          Kendra -- Runningwater Warmbloods
                                          Home of EM Raleska (Rascalino/ Warkant) and Donatella M (Furstenball/ Jazz Time)
                                          'Like' us on Facebook

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