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Staying Within The Confines of a Registry??

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  • #81
    Tim I agree with you 100% that it is far better to have an intimate knowledge of a small number of stallions and mare families than it is to have superficial knowledge of several registries.

    When searching for a stallion I wanted to cut things even finer and use a stallion who was so closely line bred he was inbred. It helped that his bloodlines had been line bred/inbred even further on both sire and dam side of the pedigree to produce a graded stallion. It eased my mind that the close line breeding threw a superior offspring.

    http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Irdenkreis&x=0&y=0

    The most important things to know about any stallion are what do his poor and average offspring look like? It's close to useless to only have knowledge of his best produce. I could be that the foal/young horse that you love and want to replicate only happens one time in 500 and that what you will actually get from the mating is hidden round the back of the farm, ready to offload to the local dealers yard.

    Clever breeders stack the odds in their favour as much as they can. You do that by sticking to one very strict registry. I do that by choosing a line bred stallion with a very high hit rate for producing GP offspring out of very different mares. (I have also used a very non-line bred stallion and learned a lot from the process!)

    However all of that pales into insignificance if you breed the best young horses in the world but then sell them into the hands of amateurs. In order to build a reputation you have to have your very best young stock produced. And, to me, that is not going to breed inspections or showing shows. It's getting that horse out in competition against all comers. It doesn't matter if it's dressage or eventing or show jumping or hunters. Your horse has got to go out there and beat everyone else. Your horse has got to be up there amongst the best of the best. Then and only then can you claim to have a successful breeding operation and it is only at that point that you will gain a reputation as a breeder.

    Comment


    • #82
      I think I am turning into a Trakehner addict! that is one lovely horse!

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
        OK, I understand what you are saying. And that philosophy has obviously worked very well indeed for Holstein.

        However, to clarify - stallions from outside registries that are on the Oldenburg roster HAVE been approved by Oldenburg. And breeding allowances for stallions NOT on the roster are not issued in blanket fashion - for instance, there may only be one allowance issued to a particular stallion in a given year - so it isn't as though a large group of mares are going to that stallion in a given year.

        Also - the Oldenburg mare books, esp. here in NA - is not nearly as homogenous as the Holsteiner mare books, but again, the registry's breeding model is not the same as Holstein's. It is more open to "diversity" - it is just a different philosophy.
        I think you have nailed it. The stallions of a studbook are for the mares of the studbook. They are custom selected to utilize the strengths of the mares and modernize them for today's sport. Holstein has a different mare base then Oldenburg. Therefore, we require different stallions. So it is very possible that a stallion bred from Holstein is not needed in Holstein, but can better be used in Oldenburg. His quality is not necessarily in question, just his need.

        Tim
        Sparling Rock Holsteiners
        www.sparlingrock.com

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
          I think you have nailed it. The stallions of a studbook are for the mares of the studbook. They are custom selected to utilize the strengths of the mares and modernize them for today's sport. Holstein has a different mare base then Oldenburg. Therefore, we require different stallions. So it is very possible that a stallion bred from Holstein is not needed in Holstein, but can better be used in Oldenburg. His quality is not necessarily in question, just his need.

          Tim
          This is exactly right. 3 years ago the reserve champion stallion in Nuemunster was Lyanjero by Landos / Casall / Carthago. He was deemed too big for the mares of Holstein. Buyers in Oldenburg bought him and thought he would work beautifully there as the Oldenburg mare base tends to be smaller than that of Holstein.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
            I think you have nailed it. The stallions of a studbook are for the mares of the studbook. They are custom selected to utilize the strengths of the mares and modernize them for today's sport. Holstein has a different mare base then Oldenburg. Therefore, we require different stallions. Tim
            I think this is a very important point. Studbooks approve stallions based on the mare base in that book and the breeding direction of that studbook. The marebase in North America as compared to the home country is typically quite different which would mean a different demand for stallions.

            The other thing that cannot be overlooked is the breeding direction and goals of the breeder and how that compares to the general breeding goal of the studbook. Holstein focusses on breeding international jumpers. I'm not marketing and selling international jumpers so trying to stay within the confines of their registry would not make sense. There have to be enough options within a studbook to allow for the breeder to breed what their market is looking for. The marebase need to be broad enough, and the stallion options need to be broad enough to allow for that. Frozen can be a problem, and for each breed there is a limited selection of stallion standing fresh in North America. A studbook with some flexibility will allow you to breed what you can sell wether it be international dressage prospects, or adult amateur hunters.
            www.vandenbrink.ca

            https://www.facebook.com/VandenbrinkWarmbloods?fref=ts

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            • #86
              If you have had the ability to collect a herd of select Holsteiner mare or Dutch mares or Hanoverian mares etc. then using the collective guidance of the leaders of the registries through time would mean a huge amount...assuming your goals are also shared. In that case I can see the point of staying in a registry.

              However, the majority of us are collecting the best mare we can find and can afford at any moment and selecting with a goal in mind...using all the information we can glean...I guess we have to work to invent our own wheel. I know that is tragic but it is also fun and interesting. It is also great to have so many resources here of people that know the pluses and minuses of many stallion from many registries where that information was discovered in careful breeding...but it is not illegal or immoral to harvest that information.

              It is also possible that a breeders goals may not mirror a registry...They would appreciate a pool of well bred mares from a registry to increase the predictability of their breeding goals. They need to use a registry that allows them the flexibility to disagree with the "inner circle".

              Comment


              • #87
                This is a VERY informative discussion! Thank you!

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #88
                  Well what do you know...

                  http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...ng-policy-2013
                  www.svhanoverians.com

                  "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Interestingly, the "other" Southern German Registries (not the big 5) have voted to band together and henceforth will be producing The German Sporthorse. They decided that their collective breeding goals were close enough as to make no difference.
                    www.juniperridgeranch.us
                    Visit us on Facebook!

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                    • #90
                      This doesn't change much for them. The stallions would still need to be approved. All WB books allow outside stallions on some level. Hanoverian's 50% rule was a problem, and should have been revoked. You must allow a certain percentage of outside blood in to maintain the hybrid vigor.

                      What they are NOT saying is,"go take your Hanoverian mares to KWPN". So they still are staying with in the confines of the registry.

                      Tim
                      Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                      www.sparlingrock.com

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
                        Hanoverian's 50% rule was a problem, and should have been revoked. You must allow a certain percentage of outside blood in to maintain the hybrid vigor.
                        Please articulate how and why this rule is a "problem" as I surmise from your second sentence here that you do not fully understand what the "rule" is.
                        "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by Bent Hickory View Post
                          Please articulate how and why this rule is a "problem" as I surmise from your second sentence here that you do not fully understand what the "rule" is.
                          You may be right, I might not understand the rule. As I see it, a Hann approved mare by a Hann approved TB could not breed to a Hann approved outcross stallion and get registered. This is how I read it.

                          I can provide you a number of cases where this was done in Holstein....Like Campesino Capitol/Sacramento Song XX/Tin Rod XX/Korenbleem XX stamm 6786. Based on that rule if applied in Holstein Neither his dam or G.dam would have been registered. If I am wrong, could you please explain the rule?

                          Tim
                          Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                          www.sparlingrock.com

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
                            You may be right, I might not understand the rule. As I see it, a Hann approved mare by a Hann approved TB could not breed to a Hann approved outcross stallion and get registered. This is how I read it.

                            I can provide you a number of cases where this was done in Holstein....Like Campesino Capitol/Sacramento Song XX/Tin Rod XX/Korenbleem XX stamm 6786. Based on that rule if applied in Holstein Neither his dam or G.dam would have been registered. If I am wrong, could you please explain the rule?

                            Tim
                            The very same scenario occurred in the Hanoverian registry.
                            http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/719584

                            THe idea behind this is, you can't take a Holsteiner mare(that has been approved by the HV) breed her to a an HV approved TB stallion, and register the foal Hanoverian. Because it isn't a Hanoverian.
                            "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              At its core, your understanding is not correct. In simplest of terms, if you want to breed an approved "outcross" (i.e., non-Hanoverian) mare to an approved "outcross" (i.e., non-Hanoverian) stallion then either the mare or the stallion has to have 50% Hanoverian blood in order for the offspring to be registered as a Hanoverian. If either parent is an approved and registered Hanoverian, it can be bred to/with any other approved parent, outcross or not. Basically, if you start with one registered Hanoverian parent, you can outcross generationally to your heart's content and still produce registered foals - just like Holstein.
                              "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by Bent Hickory View Post
                                At its core, your understanding is not correct. In simplest of terms, if you want to breed an approved "outcross" (i.e., non-Hanoverian) mare to an approved "outcross" (i.e., non-Hanoverian) stallion then either the mare or the stallion has to have 50% Hanoverian blood in order for the offspring to be registered as a Hanoverian. If either parent is an approved and registered Hanoverian, it can be bred to/with any other approved parent, outcross or not. Basically, if you start with one registered Hanoverian parent, you can outcross generationally to your heart's content and still produce registered foals - just like Holstein.
                                Thanks for the correction. I understand now.

                                Tim
                                Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                                www.sparlingrock.com

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  In Holstein you can't get an outside mare registered unless she has 5 generations of approved sires in a row. This is near impossible to do in a lifetime, so it isn't really done. This is why I was confused, I thought it was similar in Hanover, my appologies.

                                  Tim
                                  Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                                  www.sparlingrock.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
                                    In Holstein you can't get an outside mare registered unless she has 5 generations of approved sires in a row. This is near impossible to do in a lifetime, so it isn't really done.
                                    I don't think this means what you think it means either.
                                    "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Assuming this new policy is approved, and assuming AHS follows suit, does anyone know if it will apply to foals born in 2012 but not yet registered? Or will it apply only to foals born in 2013 or later?

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                        Assuming this new policy is approved, and assuming AHS follows suit, does anyone know if it will apply to foals born in 2012 but not yet registered? Or will it apply only to foals born in 2013 or later?
                                        It's not yet approved by the VhW and it's not yet being formally discussed by the AHS or approved by its membership. My guess is that it won't apply until the breeding year after any such approval.
                                        "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Bent Hickory View Post
                                          I don't think this means what you think it means either.

                                          I may not know Hannoverian rules, but Holstein I know. It is exactly that. Holstein doesn't breed with outside mares. EU rules dictate that they have to give some paper to a horse that is by a Holsteiner, but it does't dictate what paper it gets. So the white papers designate those horses they have to give papers too, and the Pink Papers designate full registered horses. I know the rules intimately.

                                          Tim
                                          Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                                          www.sparlingrock.com

                                          Comment

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