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Staying Within The Confines of a Registry??

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    Tim, re GOV : a mare still has to be approved and clearly their standards are going to be different than other registries as they have a certain vision/breeding goals ect. Edgewood isn't saying that you can just bring any mare out there and breed it to any stallion...there is an approval process and I am sure acceptable and non acceptable populations. But they don't have the 50 percent rule if I am understanding things correctly?

    I am sorry I openend my mouth for demanding a higher standard. SO why is it exactly we wonder why the buying public floods to Germany and Holland for their sport horses?

    The good thing is you don't have to register your horses with GOV, you can do whatever it is you like. The breeding policy that you are so offended by is the one producing horses that these people are flooding to Germany to buy. GOV's breeding policy wasn't invented in NA.

    Anyways, I didn't start this thread to argue about which registry is the best ect ect. I agree with some of what you are saying, I don't know that I totally agree with the breeding policy taken by the GOV as described above. But at the end of the day a good horse is a good horse. There are many very talented GOV dressage horses out there...so clearly whatever they are doing is working alright. Same goes for KWPN.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
      Sorry to derail the original topic of this thread, and not looking to pick a fight, but this a rather ridiculous statement! I don't care how novice a breeder you are, you need to do your own research; you are responsible for the foals that you are bringing into this world, and that includes making sure that they can be registered.
      And I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) definitely read the stallion guides/registration requirements for each registry I plan on using. Usually double check the rules each year, too, to make sure that nothing has changed. As a novice breeder I would think it would be even more imperative do to so? Then again, I'm really big on people taking personal responsibility for their actions....
      So it is okay for the SO to just turn a blind eye, take the money, and the heck with the MO's plans for the foal? Wow. We have very different expectations regarding how much an SO should help budding breeders.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
        GOV is nothing more then a registry now. Another paper registry who just collects your money. So I ask again, why not just use AWS for that paper if there aren't any standards? Why have a Germany registry approve your foals when it has already been stated that all horses are welcome. It doesn't sound like you are getting much for your money.

        I am sorry I openend my mouth for demanding a higher standard. SO why is it exactly we wonder why the buying public floods to Germany and Holland for their sport horses?

        Until we accept that our breeding practices are not the same as Europes, we will continue to fall prey to our own ignorance.

        Carry on.

        Tim
        Oh, Tim, please. You are drinking the same "nasty wine" as Reece.

        Yes, Oldenburg is a registry. I am not sure anyone claimed otherwise. And not "all horses are welcome", so I don't know where you get that from. As stated, stallions not on the roster must be approved by another acknowledged registry (as acknowledged by Oldenburg) and they must have met performance requirements on a par with Oldenburg's own requirements, before being granted a breeding allowance. IOW, they must be ELIGIBLE for Oldenburg approval by pedigree, and by performance. Furthermore, the North American department (OHBS/GOV) has reciprocity with Germany regarding stallion approval - stallions approved by the Verband there are considered approved here (so breeders here can breed to any stallion on the Verband's roster, without paying additional fees), and stallions approved here are considered approved in Germany (so a stallion approved here can be exported to Germany and be used for breeding there, as can his descendants).

        Regarding the impact Oldenburg has on breeding - at the moment, 4 of the 10 stallions on the WBFSH top sire rankings for dressage are OLDENBURGS, so apparently their breeding philosophy isn't so far off track.
        Last edited by DownYonder; Nov. 28, 2012, 06:47 AM.

        Comment


        • #44
          I have a GOV mare, approved for breeding with AHS (who does not carry 50% Hanoverian blood), and I breed Hanoverians. Whenever I put hypothetical breedings together in my mind, I email the AHS office to see if the resulting foal from the hypothetical breeding would be eligible to be registered AHS. I usually get a response within an hour! It's really not rocket science. So with regard to the OP, I know exactly how it is with having less options for choosing stallions, but I choose to stay with AHS because I like the registry so much (for many of the reasons already stated, and also the prompt customer service).
          Kim
          'Like' my facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Calla...946873?sk=wall

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Callaway View Post
            I have a GOV mare, approved for breeding with AHS (who does not carry 50% Hanoverian blood), and I breed Hanoverians. Whenever I put hypothetical breedings together in my mind, I email the AHS office to see if the resulting foal from the hypothetical breeding would be eligible to be registered AHS. I usually get a response within an hour! It's really not rocket science.
            Of course it isn't rocket science - for those that KNOW TO DO IT. But it would never occur to novice Hanoverian breeders, esp. when they are used to working with another registry without such a rule, and esp. when the SO is heavily involved with AHS. Believe me, these folks now know, but it was not a very encouraging venture into the Hanoverian world for them.

            At any rate - we have gotten off topic. People have different reasons for staying with a registry. Some fervently believe their chosen registry is the.best.thing.ever. Some think this registry, or that registry, offers the best in customer service. Some don't want to deal with the hassle and expense of getting their foals inspected. Some don't want to deal with multiple registry memberships or fees. Different strokes for different folks.

            Comment


            • #46
              [QUOTE=DownYonder;6691291]Of course it isn't rocket science - for those that KNOW TO DO IT. But it would never occur to novice Hanoverian breeders, esp. when they are used to working with another registry without such a rule, and esp. when the SO is heavily involved with AHS. Believe me, these folks now know, but it was not a very encouraging venture into the Hanoverian world for them.

              I am not too sympathetic with "Novice Hanoverian breeders" who don't check the rules. Some seem to want the brand, because of the perception of quality it imparts ... however often they overlook that quality must be paid for by the breeders and registry . When they buy a mare with part Hanoverian breeding, or breed to a branded but "unlicensed" or perhaps "unapproved" stallion, they should realize that this type of breeding approach doesn't fit within the guidelines that have produced the horses whom they claim to want to breed.
              If you are bringing any life into the world, know the rules and possible options. If this is a horse-life, be aware of the procedures and guidelines that go into producing a specific type / breed of horse and the specific market for that animal.
              Sunny Days Hanoverians
              http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
                Wow, okay I guess the only difference is....they at least approve who they breed with first. However, maybe you are right, GOV is nothing more then a registry now. Another paper registry who just collects your money. So I ask again, why not just use AWS for that paper if there aren't any standards? Why have a Germany registry approve your foals when it has already been stated that all horses are welcome. It doesn't sound like you are getting much for your money.

                I am sorry I openend my mouth for demanding a higher standard. SO why is it exactly we wonder why the buying public floods to Germany and Holland for their sport horses?

                Until we accept that our breeding practices are not the same as Europes, we will continue to fall prey to our own ignorance.

                Carry on.

                Tim
                Where did you get that you can breed anything to anything for Oldenburg? Never did I say that. What I said was that Oldenburg allows stallions from other registries into their registry if they have passed the appropriate testing procedure (ie, SPT with sufficient scores per GOV rules). If they do not, Oldenburg has no hesitation of removing the stallions licensing approval (case in point President's Jack Sparrow). To compare GOV with AWS is kind of ludicrous! GOV is extremely well respected, has a rigorous process, has a huge auction that brings high prices, etc, etc.

                [
                QUOTE=Sunnydays;6691313]I am not too sympathetic with "Novice Hanoverian breeders" who don't check the rules. Some seem to want the brand, because of the perception of quality it imparts ... however often they overlook that quality must be paid for by the breeders and registry . When they buy a mare with part Hanoverian breeding, or breed to a branded but "unlicensed" or perhaps "unapproved" stallion, they should realize that this type of breeding approach doesn't fit within the guidelines that have produced the horses whom they claim to want to breed.
                If you are bringing any life into the world, know the rules and possible options. If this is a horse-life, be aware of the procedures and guidelines that go into producing a specific type / breed of horse and the specific market for that animal.[/QUOTE]

                Exactly, just as Hillside and I said earlier. Yes it would have been nice for the SO to let the MO know, but in reality, it is the MO who needs to know the rules.
                Last edited by Edgewood; Nov. 28, 2012, 07:56 AM. Reason: typos
                Kris
                www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
                Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                  So it is okay for the SO to just turn a blind eye, take the money, and the heck with the MO's plans for the foal? Wow. We have very different expectations regarding how much an SO should help budding breeders.
                  I don't think it is the stallion owner's responsibility to ask every mare owner that breeds to their stallion what their registration plans are. I don't think it is the stallion owner's responsibility to go over the breeding rules to every mare owner. It is completely within the realm of possibility to have a mare owner breed a TB mare to a Hanoverian stallion and NOT plan on registering the foal Hanoverian. It happens all the time. Is the stallion owner supposed to police every mare owner? Did the mare owner specifically ask the stallion owner if the foal would be registerable? Regardless, I stand by my opinion that the responsibility for this situation falls on the mare owner's shoulders. And I bet if this were a "novice" mare owner complaining about GOV regisration issues and they hadn't read the guidelines themselves, you'd agree, too.
                  Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by RyTimMick
                    So I ask again, why not just use AWS for that paper if there aren't any standards?
                    Seriously, you are comparing GOV with AWS? The idea is so absurd I can't even formulate a response.
                    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Breeding horses well requires much homework and attention to detail.

                      That includes knowing the rules of the registry with which one works. I can see DY's friends experience making them unhappy with the SO who did not educate them. However, being disenchanted with AHS seems a bit unreasonable. The AHS website is one of the most clear and thorough that any registry offers. There are entire pages devoted to breeding a mare and a special page devoted to breeding a non-Hanoverian mare which clearly tells the special requirements that apply to AHS approved TB, Arab and non-Hanoverian warmbloods.

                      All one needs to do to get a specific answer on a specific mare is to send an email or pick up the phone during business hours. The staff is prompt in answering any questions.

                      It is the mare owner's obligation to know the rules, just as they need to know a bit about mare cycles, normal and abnormal gestation, nutrition, foal handling, marketing. There is a learning curve in taking on any new endeavor. Those who do their homework are likely to have better results than those who do not. Blaming others and using the excuse that they are new to something is not going to be much help. That applies to anything in life, not just breeding horses. IMHO.
                      Last edited by Home Again Farm; Nov. 28, 2012, 02:33 PM. Reason: typo correction
                      Mary Lou
                      http://www.homeagainfarm.com

                      https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

                      Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        I prefer to breed within the Hanoverian registry, but I will go with the stallion that meets my mare more than with the registry.

                        I am also a member of the GOV and the KWPN. My mare is approved GOV, so I can go that way if I don't find a Hanoverian stallion that meets my needs or, I can also go KWPN. Having a TB mare needs she doesn't need to be inspected (in fact, they WON'T inspect her) and I can register by mail when all else fails.
                        www.EquusMagnificus.ca
                        Breeding & Sales
                        Facebook | YouTube

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                          I don't think it is the stallion owner's responsibility to ask every mare owner that breeds to their stallion what their registration plans are. I don't think it is the stallion owner's responsibility to go over the breeding rules to every mare owner. It is completely within the realm of possibility to have a mare owner breed a TB mare to a Hanoverian stallion and NOT plan on registering the foal Hanoverian. It happens all the time. Is the stallion owner supposed to police every mare owner? Did the mare owner specifically ask the stallion owner if the foal would be registerable? Regardless, I stand by my opinion that the responsibility for this situation falls on the mare owner's shoulders. And I bet if this were a "novice" mare owner complaining about GOV regisration issues and they hadn't read the guidelines themselves, you'd agree, too.
                          I did just that in 2010. Bred a TB mare to Wolkentanz II (Hanoverian) and registered the filly GOV.
                          www.EquusMagnificus.ca
                          Breeding & Sales
                          Facebook | YouTube

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                            Oh, Tim, please. You are drinking the same "nasty wine" as Reece.

                            Yes, Oldenburg is a registry. I am not sure anyone claimed otherwise. And not "all horses are welcome", so I don't know where you get that from. As stated, stallions not on the roster must be approved by another acknowledged registry (as acknowledged by Oldenburg) and they must have met performance requirements on a par with Oldenburg's own requirements, before being granted a breeding allowance. IOW, they must be ELIGIBLE for Oldenburg approval by pedigree, and by performance. Furthermore, the North American department (OHBS/GOV) has reciprocity with Germany regarding stallion approval - stallions approved by the Verband there are considered approved here (so breeders here can breed to any stallion on the Verband's roster, without paying additional fees), and stallions approved here are considered approved in Germany (so a stallion approved here can be exported to Germany and be used for breeding there, as can his descendants).

                            Regarding the impact Oldenburg has on breeding - at the moment, 4 of the 10 stallions on the WBFSH top sire rankings for dressage are OLDENBURGS, so apparently their breeding philosophy isn't so far off track.


                            Downyonder ! Don't you bring me up in matters that don't concern me !

                            I happen to be drinking wine from a vintage that is #1 in the world. This vintage would not be #1 in the world if it had a wide open , come one, come all studbook philosophy.

                            I breed strictly within the confines of the AHHA and Holsteiner Verband who both, simultaneously , provide over 1,000 approved stallions for me to choose from annually. Why would I need to look outside my books ?

                            again......don't bring my name up in matters that don't concern me.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I've only bred a few times (4), and don't intend to do it any more, but when I did, my only real consideration was finding the best possible match for my mare, a pre-split oldenburg approved/premium JC reg. TB. Despite my mare's WB approvals, I first bred her to a TB stallion, and subsequently to Cunningham, a Holsteiner who was not approved in the US until several years after I bred to him for the first time. Clearly, I had (and still would have) no interest in staying within the confines of any registry.
                              http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by pinecone View Post
                                Seriously, you are comparing GOV with AWS? The idea is so absurd I can't even formulate a response.

                                Maybe thinking of ISR/OLD NA? Not OBS/GOV?
                                Draumr Hesta Farm
                                "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
                                Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  You folks are a tough crowd. It is pretty obvious some of you have forgotten what it is like to be a newbie breeder who doesn't know much about WB breeding, registries, inspections, approvals, etc. Very often, the first real contact these breeders have with the WB world is with a stallion owner, and they tend to lean on the SO to not steer them wrong. Yeah, it is nice to get all sanctimonious and say things like "I ALWAYS read the stallion book", or "it is the mare owner's responsibility" but most NEW breeders don't know what they don't know. They don't know they are supposed to read the stallion book from cover to cover instead of relying on the SO to guide them. They don't know they are supposed to verify eligibility with the office instead of relying on the SO. They don't know they are supposed to not trust the SO. It's a bit of a surprise to them when they get that hard reality check

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Bayhawk View Post
                                    Downyonder ! Don't you bring me up in matters that don't concern me !

                                    I happen to be drinking wine from a vintage that is #1 in the world. This vintage would not be #1 in the world if it had a wide open , come one, come all studbook philosophy.

                                    I breed strictly within the confines of the AHHA and Holsteiner Verband who both, simultaneously , provide over 1,000 approved stallions for me to choose from annually. Why would I need to look outside my books ?

                                    again......don't bring my name up in matters that don't concern me.
                                    Jeez - relax, Reece! Man, you Holsteiner dudes are touchy!

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      That's just it. As newbie breeders one would think the registry would be the first place to start when looking for the the most basic of info. I can see being a bit confused about the 50% rule and having to ask questions, I was. But, as a newbie wb breeder myself, the first thing I did was go to the different breed websites and see what the foal reg qualifications were since I had several breeds in mind and knew next to nothing about them. Educating myself on the different breeding requirements just seemed like the most logical thing to do. Then, I started asking questions to further my knowledge. I'm still asking questions. Lol
                                      Last edited by Fourbeats; Nov. 28, 2012, 07:13 PM. Reason: typing on this tablet sucks

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                        And there is no "50%" blood rule such as required by the Hanoverians - you can breed a TB mare to a Hanoverian stallion, or a DWB mare to a KWPN stallion, or a Trakehner mare to a Westfalen stallion, and register those offspring as Oldenburg. As long as the mare is approved for Oldenburg breeding, and the stallion meets the eligibility criteria for a breeding allowance, the foal will be accepted.
                                        This is is why I said what I said, and this is why I asked. I don't care which studbook you all think is the best. It doesn't matter to me. If you make the comment above about your studbook, then I am left to believe there are no standards.

                                        The reason people flock to Europe is because most German breeders are breeding with Knowledge of their horses. They have been breeding with the same family of mares for their entire lives. They have seen hundreds of horses from those mares and decades of generations. When you go to the top breeders in the world, they don't have mares from different breeds on their farms. Most have just 1 or 2 motherlines. Thats it. Many farms I go to will have 4 generations on the farm living and breathing. Many breeders here haven't even seen the dam of their mare let alone siblings. Those same breeders are going to tell me that the need for flexibility will allow them to pick the best stallion. I ask, how could they possibly known that? They can't.

                                        Unless you are breeding with as much knowledge as the breeders in Europe, you are just guessing. Just one of my mares I have seen her dam, picture of her grandam all 6 of her siblings, and 3 foals from her sisters. This doesn't even count other horses from her stamm. I have seen in person the sires of most of her siblings in person, and the full brother of her sire. I have also seen at least 10 others with Holsteiners with the same broodmare sire. I am only just beginning to learn about my mare, let alone who the "Best" stallion for her would be. If I were to go outside of her studbook with stallions that have never bred mares with her pedigree I would be guessing. German breeders do not breed this way, and neither will I.

                                        So again, I don't care what studbook you choose, but breeding with multiple ones makes it impossible to know enough about each to breed better then those who are masters of their breed. I was suggesting you master one instead falling prey to being jack of many.

                                        Tim

                                        P.S. All WB's approve sires from outside of their book, but in Germany they demand that they are presented and approved before allowing them to be used in their studbook. Consul, Caletto, Calypso, Landgraf, Lord, Liostro, Colonel, and Corrado are no less Holsteiner becuase they are by Holsteiner approved outcross stallions. They all are Holsteiners, and out of Holsteiner mares. No breeder in Holstein goes to Oldenburg or Holland to buy their mares and have them approved for breeding in their book. Holland, RPSI, Zangersheide etc do this all the time. They are paper registries not breeds.
                                        Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                                        www.sparlingrock.com

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                          Jeez - relax, Reece! Man, you Holsteiner dudes are touchy!
                                          Please don't insult "Holsteiner dudes" by assuming Reece is representative of anyone except his PUTB self. The (then) head of the Holsteiner Verband was actually instrumental in my choice of Cunningham for my TB mare. Questions of approval or registration never came up. It was all about finding the best stallion for my mare given my goals.
                                          http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

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