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Staying Within The Confines of a Registry??

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  • #21
    I also don't really care about registry.....I pick the stallions that I think will complement my mares, and go from there. Although, a few years ago, I ended up paying membership dues, mare activations, foal registrations, etc to four different associations, and that was ridiculous. It was well over $1000, which does cut into my bottom line, so it made me start to look towards narrowing that down to two associations per year.
    www.newstandardsporthorses.com

    Comment


    • #22
      I breed Hanoverians exclusively. I chose the registry for two main reasons. First, I love the breed. Second, it offers some of the best customer service available to breeders. I also like its strictness when accepting outside mares, I appreciate being able to register by mail and to get outreach branding. I own 3 Oldenburg mares. Two have 50% Hanoverian bloodlines, so I am not limited in choices with them. The third is just under 50%, but has crossed so well with Hanoverian stallions that I feel no repercussions of the limits that apply to her.

      Different strokes for different folks.
      Mary Lou
      http://www.homeagainfarm.com

      https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

      Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

      Comment


      • #23
        Flexibility does not equal better choices

        I frankly can not think of a single good reason to NOT stay in the confines of a Registry. Everyone keeps saying,"I like to be able to pick the best stallion for my mare regardless of Registry".

        Here is the problem with that statement. YOU CAN'T

        The ability to pick the right stallion requires that you know how that stallion breeds with mares like your own. It also requires that you know how your mare breeds, and how her blood mixes with that of stallions from a breed. If you breed your mare to a different stallion from a different studbook every year, you can not known what is coming from your mare and what is coming from the stallion. The knowledge needed to be able to make this decision comes from many breeders using the stallion on mares from a similar genetic base.

        The second problem with this statement is the thinking that Hannoverian breeders, Dutch Breeders, Holsteiner Breeders in Europe are able to be the best breeders in the world using only the stallions avaible to them from their studbook, but somehow we in American have some unique situation. That somehow we have special mares that none of the stallion in the studbook they originate from are good enough. I think this notion is laughable.

        So if you are a Hannoverian breeder, why did you buy mares that weren't Hannoverian? I have to "assume" they are good enough to breed, which is why you purchased them. Why didn't you purchase or breed for yourself Hannoverian Mares? It sounds like your problem is self induced.

        I breed Holsteiners, because I believe them to be the best jumping horse in the world. The WBFSH supports this belief. I assume you breed Hannoverians because you believe them to be the best sport horse in the world. So why not buy Hannoverians? I purchased Holsteiner mares with breedable pedigree's. I then chose stallions from the VAST array of stallions approved to ALL Holsteiner breeders in the world. I could even choose outside stallions approved for breeding. Regardless of breed preference, I can make these decisions based on HUNDREDS of mares like my own being bred to these stallions. I can in fact choose the best stallion for my mare using KNOWLEDGE, and doing so without knowledge is reckless. To accentuate this point I supply evidence from the "Limonchello II" thread. Posters were actually stating how he bred when in 8 years he had only 38 foals. 1st many of them had not even seen a fraction of those 38 foals, or let alone their dams. SO, they in fact could NOT accurately state how he breeds, yet they were quick to do so.


        Some feel registries/studbooks are restrictive, I find them to be informative. You can't believe a breed of horse, or sport horse registry is the best and then turn around and tell me that same registry doesn't have the best stallion for your mares. It just doesn't make any sense. Both can not be true.


        Sorry for the rant, just my 2 cents.

        Tim
        Sparling Rock Holsteiners
        www.sparlingrock.com

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Thank you for all the replies.

          First off, there is lots that I love about the Hanoverian registry for the reasons mentioned by Home Again Farm. It's not that I am looking elsewhere because I dislike something about the registry. I understand there are reasons why they have the rules they do...and I agree with them for the most part.


          So if you are a Hannoverian breeder, why did you buy mares that weren't Hannoverian? I have to "assume" they are good enough to breed, which is why you purchased them. Why didn't you purchase or breed for yourself Hannoverian Mares? It sounds like your problem is self induced.



          My goal is to breed the best dressage horse possible for high performance sport. That is it. We generally don't sell foals and we keep most of our youngsters to develop. I know what I like and that is what I try to breed for. I buy my mares according to the individual (her genetics and her type/riding qualities) not according to the kind of papers her foals may have. I did purchase Hanoverian mares to start, as I mentioned because at first I wanted to stick to one studbook. I have five fillies/mares that I kept from my best Han mare. I will likely continue breeding them Hanoverian and I do feel they have lots of stallions that work well for them. I did not mean to imply otherwise. But the other two are mares from different populations, one an GOV mare who I think is outstanding and the other a Trakehner mare who is also very nice in the aspects that matter to me (in terms of potential to breed for high performance). I had the Trak mare approved Han, they loved her. I will have the Don Larino mare approved as well if I decide to go that route. But despite the fact that they are accepted by Han doesn't mean that they necessarily have the best stallion for these mares...that I guess is the issue. So yes, my "problem" is self induced, I am not claiming otherwise.

          In regards to KWPN, say I took the Trakehner mare to have her approved...do they have a rule similar to the Hanoverians where she must be bred to a Dutch stallion? What about GOV? I am just not even familiar with other registries in terms of their breeding policies even are.
          www.svhanoverians.com

          "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

          Comment


          • #25
            At Sunny Days Hanoverians - the emphasis is on breeding Hanoverian dressage horses. However, if I find a good match, and the stallion is not Hanoverian approved, I go ahead and breed, then present the mare with foal at foot to GOV. It is pretty simple, and once the mare is in the GOV studbook, annual mare fees are not required. I have also bred a Dutch mare to a Hano stallion, then had the foal put into the KWPN - NA registry (A).
            I find knowing all the Hanoverian lines keeps me busy -- but there is so much outcrossing now that I will go with my perfect choice, regardless of brand, if it makes sense. Right now I am an active HV and GOV member.
            All my mares , except one GOV, are Hanoverian branded. One is also GOV approved, and if my plans for a 2nd mare work out in 2013, I'll also have her GOV approved.
            Sunny Days Hanoverians
            http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
              I frankly can not think of a single good reason to NOT stay in the confines of a Registry. Everyone keeps saying,"I like to be able to pick the best stallion for my mare regardless of Registry".

              Here is the problem with that statement. YOU CAN'T

              The ability to pick the right stallion requires that you know how that stallion breeds with mares like your own. It also requires that you know how your mare breeds, and how her blood mixes with that of stallions from a breed. If you breed your mare to a different stallion from a different studbook every year, you can not known what is coming from your mare and what is coming from the stallion. The knowledge needed to be able to make this decision comes from many breeders using the stallion on mares from a similar genetic base.

              The second problem with this statement is the thinking that Hannoverian breeders, Dutch Breeders, Holsteiner Breeders in Europe are able to be the best breeders in the world using only the stallions avaible to them from their studbook, but somehow we in American have some unique situation. That somehow we have special mares that none of the stallion in the studbook they originate from are good enough. I think this notion is laughable.

              So if you are a Hannoverian breeder, why did you buy mares that weren't Hannoverian? I have to "assume" they are good enough to breed, which is why you purchased them. Why didn't you purchase or breed for yourself Hannoverian Mares? It sounds like your problem is self induced.

              I breed Holsteiners, because I believe them to be the best jumping horse in the world. The WBFSH supports this belief. I assume you breed Hannoverians because you believe them to be the best sport horse in the world. So why not buy Hannoverians? I purchased Holsteiner mares with breedable pedigree's. I then chose stallions from the VAST array of stallions approved to ALL Holsteiner breeders in the world. I could even choose outside stallions approved for breeding. Regardless of breed preference, I can make these decisions based on HUNDREDS of mares like my own being bred to these stallions. I can in fact choose the best stallion for my mare using KNOWLEDGE, and doing so without knowledge is reckless. To accentuate this point I supply evidence from the "Limonchello II" thread. Posters were actually stating how he bred when in 8 years he had only 38 foals. 1st many of them had not even seen a fraction of those 38 foals, or let alone their dams. SO, they in fact could NOT accurately state how he breeds, yet they were quick to do so.


              Some feel registries/studbooks are restrictive, I find them to be informative. You can't believe a breed of horse, or sport horse registry is the best and then turn around and tell me that same registry doesn't have the best stallion for your mares. It just doesn't make any sense. Both can not be true.


              Sorry for the rant, just my 2 cents.

              Tim
              There are some valid points here, but we will have to agree to disagree. I want to breed jumpers and while I gravitate towards Holsteiner bloodlines, not all of my mares are registered/branded Holsteiners. In my case I have a very good mare whose birth registry is Westfalen (she is also approved with them). To stay within registry for her would have been difficult. She is line-bred Pilot, and it is difficult to find Westfalen stallions here that aren't too closely related to her. I chose to have her approved for breeding with AHHA, have used Holsteiner stallions on her, and have not regretted it one bit.
              I also have to add that other than a very few "closed" registries the bloodlines are so similiar between registries that going outside the registry sometimes doesn't mean much in terms of a different gene pool.
              On the other hand, one could argue that the KWPN are masters of "going outside" the historically dutch lines to get their genes. They approve a lot of stallions with Holsteiner breeding, for example. Heck, even the Holsteiner verband has introduced French blood, and at one point that was quite experimental. So for me to see an individual breeder choose to do the same thing isn't that big of a deal, or a stretch, to me.
              Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

              Comment


              • #27
                One big reason why I like OHBS/GOV is that it is fairly open about outside stallions - i.e., it will grant breeding allowances to stallions not on its own roster (and for a very affordable fee of $100 over the regular inspection/registration charge). Pretty much any stallion fully approved by acknowledged registries is eligible for the breeding allowance, as long as he has met performance criteria in accordance with Oldenburg's own requirements (successful completion of 70DT or 100 DT or specific sport requirenments). That opens the door to a tremendous array of stallions that may not be on the registry's own roster. And there is no "50%" blood rule such as required by the Hanoverians - you can breed a TB mare to a Hanoverian stallion, or a DWB mare to a KWPN stallion, or a Trakehner mare to a Westfalen stallion, and register those offspring as Oldenburg. As long as the mare is approved for Oldenburg breeding, and the stallion meets the eligibility criteria for a breeding allowance, the foal will be accepted.

                And that 50% blood rule for the Hanoverians can really bite at times. I have friends that sometimes breed with TB mares, and they used to register the foals with OHBS/GOV. A few years ago, they got persuaded by a Hanoverian stallion owner to switch to AHS. One of their mares was accepted by AHS, and they bred her last year to a non-Hanoverian stallion with less than 50% Hanoverian blood. This stallion is owned by a pretty well known Hanoverian breeder, but the SO never once mentioned the 50% blood rule. These people by-passed the OHBS/GOV inspection to take the foal to the AHS inspection a month later, but were stunned to learn when they went to pre-register the foal with the AHS office that it wasn't eligible for Hanoverian registration because of the 50% rule. Needless to say, they are STEAMED because they now have an 8 month old unregistered filly. They are going to bring her next year as a yearling to OHBS/GOV, but it was a tough a lesson for them and they are now quite disenchanted with AHS.

                Comment


                • #28
                  it was a tough a lesson for them and they are now quite disenchanted with AHS.
                  I could understand being disenchanted with the stallion owner in this scenario, but not with the AHS..... (?)
                  River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by RiverOaksFarm View Post
                    I could understand being disenchanted with the stallion owner in this scenario, but not with the AHS..... (?)
                    They think it is a stupid rule, so yes, they are disenchanted with both the SO AND the registry.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by RiverOaksFarm View Post
                      I could understand being disenchanted with the stallion owner in this scenario, but not with the AHS..... (?)
                      I actually don't think this is the fault of the stallion owner or the AHS. As a mare owner I believe it is my responsibility to know the breeding rules. If they thought it was a stupid rule they could have chosen to not use that stallion/that registry.
                      Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                        I actually don't think this is the fault of the stallion owner or the AHS. As a mare owner I believe it is my responsibility to know the breeding rules. If they thought it was a stupid rule they could have chosen to not use that stallion/that registry.
                        They didn't know about the rule until it bit them. They have only been breeding for a few years, and were always Oldenburg breeders before, so were used to the more "open" rules on what stallions they could use. They got talked into going with AHS by an evangelistic Hanoverian breeder who told them their foals would sell faster if they were Hanoverians , so they were intending to go in that direction with the foal.

                        It seems to me the responsibility to tell them about the blood rule rested with the stallion owner, who knew they were using a TB mare and who knew the stallion doesn't meet the 50% rule.

                        At any rate - it is water under the bridge, and they learned a hard lesson that "all that glitters is not gold" (with apologies to JRR Tolkien).

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Tim,
                          The KWPN, #1 in the standings for dressage and jumping (more often than not) has created a very successful registry by being very open and claiming the best of every registry as their own.
                          Having a narrow genetic pool has worked for the Holsteiners and is one model for breeding. KWPN has another. Breeding the best to the best (regardless of registry) is not a new or NA issue. And when they make decisions to allow a stallion into a registry, it is based on overall breed health, not any one mare's best interest. Sometimes it is also political.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                            I actually don't think this is the fault of the stallion owner or the AHS. As a mare owner I believe it is my responsibility to know the breeding rules. If they thought it was a stupid rule they could have chosen to not use that stallion/that registry.
                            I agree with this for certain. It is the responsibility of the mare owner to verify that their mare and stallion meets the registration rules in advance. They had a whole year to investigate it from the time they bred until the time the foal went to inspection. It is clearly on the AHS rules page both in the stallion guide and on the website.
                            Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                            They have only been breeding for a few years, and were always Oldenburg breeders before, so were used to the more "open" rules on what stallions they could use. They got talked into going with AHS by an evangelistic Hanoverian breeder who told them their foals would sell faster if they were Hanoverians , so they were intending to go in that direction with the foal.

                            It seems to me the responsibility to tell them about the blood rule rested with the stallion owner, who knew they were using a TB mare and who knew the stallion doesn't meet the 50% rule.
                            The onus is on the mare owner in this case. They should have done their due diligence, it's not like that rule was hidden somewhere. And it should not matter that they were "new" breeders", the onus is still on them to do their research. And the "evangelistic Hanoverian breeder" is a bit inflammatory, it really is not necessarily the stallion owner's responsibility to tell the mare owner the "rules" of the registry. They are easy to find out.

                            Back to the original topic. I have AHS mares, but I also have had them approved by GOV. If I feel that they stallion that is GOV approved is a better match, I will go to that registry. But Oldenburg and Hanoverians also cross registister in Germany too, so there is a bit more flux between those two, especially Hanoverian Branded stallions that are later licensed by Oldenburg (and maybe even not by the Hanoverian Verband). As noted, GOV tends to be a more open registry.

                            This is very different from the Holsteiners, who have a very small and pretty closed registry, with a very specific function -- to breed jumpers.
                            Kris
                            www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
                            Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by stoicfish View Post
                              Tim,
                              The KWPN, #1 in the standings for dressage and jumping (more often than not) has created a very successful registry by being very open and claiming the best of every registry as their own.
                              Having a narrow genetic pool has worked for the Holsteiners and is one model for breeding. KWPN has another. Breeding the best to the best (regardless of registry) is not a new or NA issue. And when they make decisions to allow a stallion into a registry, it is based on overall breed health, not any one mare's best interest. Sometimes it is also political.
                              The KWPN is not #1, and was only #1 When they were wrongly taking credit for Cedric. This has now been rectified. They also breed over 3 times the numbers of horses, so no, it is not as good of a method as in Holstein. Have you been to VDL's website to see how many Holsteiners they are claiming as KWPN. Again, using another studbooks genetics, then claiming it as their own is not a good BREEDING method. Lastly, KWPN requires that you breed to an approved KWPN stallion, so they also would not approve the offspring of the mares we are talking about. So as an example, Dakota VDL was bred in Holstein, born in Holstein, branded holstein and approved by AHHA. Just because KWPN approved doesn't make him a Dutch Warmblood.

                              Tim
                              Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                              www.sparlingrock.com

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                One big reason why I like OHBS/GOV is that it is fairly open about outside stallions - i.e., it will grant breeding allowances to stallions not on its own roster (and for a very affordable fee of $100 over the regular inspection/registration charge). Pretty much any stallion fully approved by acknowledged registries is eligible for the breeding allowance, as long as he has met performance criteria in accordance with Oldenburg's own requirements (successful completion of 70DT or 100 DT or specific sport requirenments). That opens the door to a tremendous array of stallions that may not be on the registry's own roster. And there is no "50%" blood rule such as required by the Hanoverians - you can breed a TB mare to a Hanoverian stallion, or a DWB mare to a KWPN stallion, or a Trakehner mare to a Westfalen stallion, and register those offspring as Oldenburg. As long as the mare is approved for Oldenburg breeding, and the stallion meets the eligibility criteria for a breeding allowance, the foal will be accepted.

                                .
                                I am sorry, but what about these horses make them Oldenburgs then? Do they resemble the horses approved in Germany...not likely. If I were an Oldenburg breeder, these rules would fire me up. You can essentially breed what ever you want and they will brand it. Not exactly the standards I demand of my studbook. If all you want is a piece of paper, why not register it with AWS? It will stand for the same thing?

                                Tim
                                Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                                www.sparlingrock.com

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Edgewood View Post
                                  I agree with this for certain. It is the responsibility of the mare owner to verify that their mare and stallion meets the registration rules in advance. They had a whole year to investigate it from the time they bred until the time the foal went to inspection. It is clearly on the AHS rules page both in the stallion guide and on the website.

                                  The onus is on the mare owner in this case. They should have done their due diligence, it's not like that rule was hidden somewhere.
                                  Sorry, I disagree in this case. These are pretty novice breeders - again, they have only been breeding a few years and had only been AHS members for one year, so are not familiar with the nuances of Hanoverian policies. And really - who reads through an entire stallion guide, anyway?

                                  Additionally, as I said above, the SO knew they were using a TB mare and knew the stallion doesn't have 50% Hanoverian blood, yet never told the breeders that the foal's registration status would be a problem. To top things off, the SO serves in an official capacity with AHS, so if it wasn't mentioned by the SO, then why would the breeders feel the need to do additional research?

                                  But this isn't the only time something like this has happened. A few years ago, another very experienced Hanoverian breeder told a friend of mine she would buy her Totilas colt if she registered it with AHS instead of OHBS/GOV. I actually heard that conversation, and told my friend she better verify the foal's eligibility with the AHS office, because neither the dam nor the sire had 50% Hanoverian blood. She had never been involved with AHS, so knew nothing of the blood rule, but I was a bit surprised that the Hanoverian breeder didn't know the foal would not be eligible, either.

                                  So there are a couple of instances right there where VERY experienced and passionate Hanoverian breeders "messed up" regarding the blood rule. As I said, it sometimes bites folks.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
                                    The KWPN is not #1, and was only #1 When they were wrongly taking credit for Cedric. This has now been rectified. They also breed over 3 times the numbers of horses, so no, it is not as good of a method as in Holstein. Have you been to VDL's website to see how many Holsteiners they are claiming as KWPN. Again, using another studbooks genetics, then claiming it as their own is not a good BREEDING method. Lastly, KWPN requires that you breed to an approved KWPN stallion, so they also would not approve the offspring of the mares we are talking about. So as an example, Dakota VDL was bred in Holstein, born in Holstein, branded holstein and approved by AHHA. Just because KWPN approved doesn't make him a Dutch Warmblood.

                                    Tim
                                    Seriously Tim?
                                    From 2004 to 2009 they have been 1st in jumping and 2nd in dressage (that other sport). After 2009, 1st in both until 2012 and then they are 1st in dressage and 2nd in jumping by only a very narrow margin. They may have 3 times the horses but they are breeding for 2 very separate sports so really, at most 1.5 times the amount that are breed in Holstein. Using someone else's bloodlines is a great breeding method!!! Without the 2C's and the L line, Holsteiners would not be near where they are now. None of those actually being of Holstiener blood. And I do not hear talk about those F1 offspring not being Holsteiners.
                                    And how do you know they would not approve the mare we are talking about???

                                    p.s. Count the number of Holst and KWPN in the first 100 horses on the jumping list. The ratio of KWPN is more than double that of Holst. I bet it is even more so in the top 200. That is a much higher hit rate and is not accounted for in terms of population.

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                                      Sorry, I disagree in this case. These are pretty novice breeders - again, they have only been breeding a few years and had only been AHS members for one year, so are not familiar with the nuances of Hanoverian policies. And really - who reads through an entire stallion guide, anyway?
                                      Sorry to derail the original topic of this thread, and not looking to pick a fight, but this a rather ridiculous statement! I don't care how novice a breeder you are, you need to do your own research; you are responsible for the foals that you are bringing into this world, and that includes making sure that they can be registered.
                                      And I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) definitely read the stallion guides/registration requirements for each registry I plan on using. Usually double check the rules each year, too, to make sure that nothing has changed. As a novice breeder I would think it would be even more imperative do to so? Then again, I'm really big on people taking personal responsibility for their actions....
                                      Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                                        Sorry to derail the original topic of this thread, and not looking to pick a fight, but this a rather ridiculous statement! I don't care how novice a breeder you are, you need to do your own research; you are responsible for the foals that you are bringing into this world, and that includes making sure that they can be registered.
                                        And I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) definitely read the stallion guides/registration requirements for each registry I plan on using. Usually double check the rules each year, too, to make sure that nothing has changed. As a novice breeder I would think it would be even more imperative do to so? Then again, I'm really big on people taking personal responsibility for their actions....
                                        I could not have said it better myself, and I 100% agree with what is posted above.

                                        Originally posted by RyTimMick View Post
                                        I am sorry, but what about these horses make them Oldenburgs then? Do they resemble the horses approved in Germany...not likely. If I were an Oldenburg breeder, these rules would fire me up. You can essentially breed what ever you want and they will brand it. Not exactly the standards I demand of my studbook. If all you want is a piece of paper, why not register it with AWS? It will stand for the same thing?

                                        Tim
                                        To the original topic, at RyTimMick, and your comment about Oldenburg. Well obviously you have not studied Oldenburg breeding practices over the decades, but Oldenburg has always been a pretty open studbook. For instance, one of the big names in Oldenburg, imported to Germany by Vorwerk, was Furioso II. And there are many other cases where Oldenburg has taken stallions that other registries did not approve at first (eg, Rubinstein). And even look at a horse like Sandro Hit, an Oldenburg, but has lots of bloodlines from Holstein, Westfalia, Hannover. And the rules for the GOV in the US are the same as the ones in Germany, so yes, the German Oldenburg breeders also have a lot of flexibility in their breeding options.
                                        Last edited by Edgewood; Nov. 28, 2012, 08:51 AM.
                                        Kris
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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Edgewood View Post
                                          To the original top, at RyTimMick, and your comment about Oldenburg. Well obviously you have not studied Oldenburg breeding practices over the decades, but Oldenburg has always been a pretty open studbook. For instance, one of the big names in Oldenburg, imported to Germany by Vorwerk, was Furioso II. And there are many other cases where Oldenburg has taken stallions that other registries did not approve at first (eg, Rubinstein). And even look at a horse like Sandro Hit, an Oldenburg, but has lots of bloodlines from Holstein, Westfalia, Hannover. And the rules for the GOV in the US are the same as the ones in Germany, so yes, the German Oldenburg breeders also have a lot of flexibility in their breeding options.
                                          Wow, okay I guess the only difference is....they at least approve who they breed with first. However, maybe you are right, GOV is nothing more then a registry now. Another paper registry who just collects your money. So I ask again, why not just use AWS for that paper if there aren't any standards? Why have a Germany registry approve your foals when it has already been stated that all horses are welcome. It doesn't sound like you are getting much for your money.

                                          I am sorry I openend my mouth for demanding a higher standard. SO why is it exactly we wonder why the buying public floods to Germany and Holland for their sport horses?

                                          Until we accept that our breeding practices are not the same as Europes, we will continue to fall prey to our own ignorance.

                                          Carry on.

                                          Tim
                                          Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                                          www.sparlingrock.com

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