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Let's talk about Arabian/WB crosses

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  • Original Poster

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...r&notif_t=like

    This is Double-O-Seven an Oldenburg/Arabian gelding. By Donnerschlag out of a Polish Arabian mare. He was being shown 4th Level & PSG at the 2009 Arabian Sport Horse Nationals. He is also registered Oldenburg.
    http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

    Comment


    • I am breeding for an Anglo Arab for 2014......my goodness, it seems funny to be thinking that far ahead...breeding is really a long term thing. The t/b mare Queen High produced the NW, USDF/GAIG Grand Champion foal for 2012 by a warmblood stallion. His name is Reverance and you can see him at

      https://www.facebook.com/reqs.php?ty...2510615&type=3

      I am going to breed her to my Arabian stallion Fames Reward next. She is now in foal to Negro sire of Olympic Gold Medal horse Vallegro. She should produce an outstanding dressage type Anglo Arab.

      Comment


      • Love the Arabian WB Cross have two I do like a bit of TB in them but the original OP and a few others (like Born on the Bayou) are just lovely and a great example of good breeding. Mine come out of a stallion line where that breeder only ever kept stallions as stallions who had to have great minds/temperament , were well behaved, moved and all round good examples of horses.

        Comment


        • Crabbet on the mother's side and the stallion of my second horse has shagya Arabian waaaaay back lol.

          Comment


          • Oh dear I am from Australia so did not think my horses breeding would come up.

            Deveron Duvall is my mare's grand-dad on her sires side.



            btw the mare is 5 weeks from foaling in this picture.

            Lolita's foal


            Pedigree of the baby and mother via the baby http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=la+belle+amour

            Comment


            • My daughter has an Irish Draught/Arabian bred by Playland Farm. He is a lovely 4 year old who so wants to please her. A big name dressage instructor tried to buy him from her for one of his students a few months ago, as he felt the horse has good ability for dressage. It is so nice to have a youngster who loves to jump, loves dressage, and trail rides like an old packer.

              Comment


              • The history of Darley Arabian
                http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/DarleyArabian.html

                History of Godolphin make your own mind up but Tunisia not from reading the below is where he is from.
                http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/...inArabian.html

                BTW I love these histories and thanks to a person here for posting the link. If I am wrong I apologise in advance.

                My post on this was in a direct link to Shagya Arabian that has a link to Poland, Hungary and Germany (I think) not Tunisia. Both Shagya Arabian breeders and TB breeders may have sourced horses from the same place but that does not make them the same direction in breeding (hope that makes sense). BTW read about Pocahontas http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Pocahontas.html and if memory serve me correctly St Simon. Very interesting. Cheers

                Cheers
                Last edited by lolita1; Dec. 3, 2012, 07:18 AM.

                Comment


                • The endurance and quick recovery likely have nothing to do with muscle type. Much more likely has to do with the heart, lungs and mitochondria. And even there, I wouldn't begin to lump Thoroughbreds with Arabians.

                  One of the reasons that Arabians are such great endurance horses is their shorter stature. Interestingly, many years ago the army did a study to determine best size for calvary horses - 15.1h. Bigger horses weren't very efficient, smaller horses couldn't carry as much weight.

                  Originally posted by stripes View Post
                  I actually found the information interesting and think it is useful information. It directly relates to why the WB registries include TB's & Arabian's into their breed books. It relates to endurance and quicker recovery after a workout.
                  co-author of
                  Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                  www.duelforthecrown.com

                  Comment


                  • Shagyas are considered to be a different breed - they may have some purebred ancestors, but they are not purebred Arabians.

                    Originally posted by stripes View Post
                    I'm sure Dawn will come back and add way more info than I can, I thought Shagya's are not considered PB Arabians? AHA will not register one unless one parent is a PB Arabian and then they get HA registration. At least that is how I understood it.

                    I have a friend that breeds Shagya's for endurance, they have good size, nice bone and very willing temperaments. Which registries will approve one here in the states? Will GOV & AHS approve them?
                    co-author of
                    Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                    www.duelforthecrown.com

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      Originally posted by lolita1 View Post
                      Love the Arabian WB Cross have two I do like a bit of TB in them but the original OP and a few others (like Born on the Bayou) are just lovely and a great example of good breeding. Mine come out of a stallion line where that breeder only ever kept stallions as stallions who had to have great minds/temperament , were well behaved, moved and all round good examples of horses.
                      Thank you! And thank you for joining this conversation and showing us your beautiful horses. Since the Arabian blood is back a ways on your mare, have you ever thought about bringing in more Arabian blood? Just asking, as I want to see how others value the Arabian input to WB breeding.
                      http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        Originally posted by SportArab View Post
                        The endurance and quick recovery likely have nothing to do with muscle type. Much more likely has to do with the heart, lungs and mitochondria. And even there, I wouldn't begin to lump Thoroughbreds with Arabians.

                        One of the reasons that Arabians are such great endurance horses is their shorter stature. Interestingly, many years ago the army did a study to determine best size for calvary horses - 15.1h. Bigger horses weren't very efficient, smaller horses couldn't carry as much weight.
                        This last paragraph is a bit preplexing, a study the army did? Really? Especially since the main horse used for the US Cavalry was The Morgan Horse and they varied in size. They had endurance (probaly from the Arabian blood) and superior strength for their size, plus they were very easy keepers.

                        And quick recovery is directly related to muscle along with the others you listed. And is the "why" Arabians are very good at endurance.
                        http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

                        Comment


                        • Endurance is generally thought of as a function of heart/lung. Mitochondria are very important since they are the power plants of the cells. I would guess that Arabians have exceptional mitochondria.

                          I'll look for the cavalry study for you. I found it interesting myself.

                          Originally posted by stripes View Post
                          This last paragraph is a bit preplexing, a study the army did? Really? Especially since the main horse used for the US Cavalry was The Morgan Horse and they varied in size. They had endurance (probaly from the Arabian blood) and superior strength for their size, plus they were very easy keepers.

                          And quick recovery is directly related to muscle along with the others you listed. And is the "why" Arabians are very good at endurance.
                          co-author of
                          Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                          www.duelforthecrown.com

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            Originally posted by SportArab View Post
                            Endurance is generally thought of as a function of heart/lung. Mitochondria are very important since they are the power plants of the cells. I would guess that Arabians have exceptional mitochondria.

                            I'll look for the cavalry study for you. I found it interesting myself.
                            I'm guessing that you do not have experience in Endurance? Muscle recovery is HUGE to the success of endurance horses, especially the top Endurance horses. It is much more than Heart/Lung, especially in the 100 mile horses.
                            http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

                            Comment


                            • Mitochondria are what power everything, including the muscle cells. And what's interesting is that the mitochondria are passed only via the female lines, which is one of the reasons I've argued that Arabian mares would be the best to cross on warmbloods.

                              No matter what type of muscle you have, you need efficient mitochondria.
                              co-author of
                              Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                              www.duelforthecrown.com

                              Comment


                              • Should probably point out the mitochondria have their own DNA. It is separate from the DNA in the rest of the body. The mtDNA is inherited only from the mother (as SportArab mentioned). The sperm's mtDNA is along its tail and powers it. This tail and its mtDNA is sheared off when the sperm nuclear DNA enters the egg.
                                The Inverted Y
                                Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
                                2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
                                www.allanglos.net

                                Comment


                                • Oh, and I have an Arab mare in foal to a WB now. Due in April. Mare is Ben Rabba/*El Paso granddaughter. Stallion is Qredit by Quaterback.
                                  Attached Files
                                  Last edited by allanglos; Dec. 4, 2012, 03:21 PM.
                                  The Inverted Y
                                  Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
                                  2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
                                  www.allanglos.net

                                  Comment


                                  • Hi

                                    Honestly not hugely into to thinking about breeding right now just getting over the last one and hats off to those that are true breeders I so am not. Yes if I was to breed the filly I would be looking to increase her Arab blood but the combination and quality I like right now at least is not (so not trying to knock anyone) available in big numbers here plus there is a few that I like but they have the same breeding as mine. I think in a few years time what I would like to breed too, which really is the time frame for me to forget how much money (and stress) a 4 week old foal will suck out of you, will be available in I hope bigger numbers. I would be looking at Anglo or Arabian WB with my normal criteria.

                                    Cheers

                                    Comment


                                    • Here is a friends half Arab/WB cross. This filly is age 2 and a pinch over 16h.
                                      Attached Files
                                      The Inverted Y
                                      Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
                                      2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
                                      www.allanglos.net

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by alliekat View Post
                                        Does it matter whether the Arab is on top or bottom when it comes to the cross?
                                        I have spent the last few years drooling over HG Esquire. I would love to put him to one of our WB mares and with the Cyber Monday special they are running, 2013 might just be the year


                                        https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gaine...37696739611189
                                        as to the quality of the horse? Does not matter. But there are some things to consider. if the Arab is a mare and the stallion is an approved WB then the foal can get WB papers...which is more desireable for sales purposes than half Arab papers the other way around. There *might* be an approved Arab or 2 around yet.The other problem with WB mare and Arab stallion registry aside is that it is really hard to find an Arab stallion with the *right* confo for a WB cross/sporthorse type. I had a WB mare I was looking for an Arab stallion for as she was small and refined already (for a WB: she was 15.1H with a dishy head/wanted to stick with a like type). What I wanted was an Arab stallion at least 15.1H that didn't have the steep croup so many of the halter Arabs have. I ended up with a list of only 4 stallions that met my needs. Bey lines, Shagyas and Polish Arabs were the more suitable ones in the end. In the end I chose a Bey line stallion that was 15.2 and even had a history of bigger horses (15.3 to 16H) in his family. The colt ended up maturing at 15.3H. Later I ended up leasing the stallions dam (co bred a colt with her owner) to Grandom and had a very nice colt that sold at 2 days old there. The owner of the mare liked the foal a lot and bred her back to Grandom again. And she also bred another one of her mares Landkonig. That was a nice foal too.
                                        Providence Farm
                                        http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by SportArab View Post
                                          Endurance is generally thought of as a function of heart/lung. Mitochondria are very important since they are the power plants of the cells. I would guess that Arabians have exceptional mitochondria.

                                          I'll look for the cavalry study for you. I found it interesting myself.
                                          Endurance really does not have anything to do with the "quality" of mitochondria. As a vet student I have actually NEVER heard of anyone claiming that mitochondria can be "exceptional" or less than exceptional. Yes the number of mitochondria affects a horse's ability to be an efficient endurance mount, but you want more in your skeletal muscle fibers and you want to increase them in size. But last I checked there was no difference in quality of mitochondria.
                                          When a horse starts training for endurance riding, yes you will see a change in mitochondria but it won't be in the heart or lungs, it will be in the skeletal muscle. The heart changes to become a more efficient pump by decreasing the heart rate but increasing the stroke volume which changes the cardiac output, and reducing blood viscosity to reduce turbulence. Nothing changes about the mitochondria in the heart. So much more goes into making the heart an efficient pump than the mitochondria in its cells.
                                          But a big thing that influences the endurance of an animal is the type of skeletal muscle fibers they have. Most endurance horses have slow twitch fibers because they are fairly resistant to fatigue which is critical for endurance. The only issue with the type of muscles is that if you are predisposed to have more fast twitch (like for sprinting) there isn't really much you can do to change that. So it could be that Arabian horses simply are predisposed to more slow twitch fibers making them good endurance mounts but without any research into that matter no one can really say.
                                          Last edited by amzngallison; Dec. 4, 2012, 09:00 PM.

                                          Comment

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