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Let's talk about Arabian/WB crosses

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  • Original Poster

    Originally posted by lolita1 View Post
    The one thing that bothers me about using Arabian's is the club foot issue it was something that I was very mindfull about when looking for a baby daddy. My mare is not club footed but it exists in almost every pedigree due to stallions and breeding mares not being culled. Fact is in Aus so many Arabians have a club foot of some type that it is almost normal.
    THIS is why too much Bey Shah can be a problem. Too many Arabian people think the high/low is just fine. Its not. To find an Arabian mare with very good to excellent legs is difficult and then to find one without the other faults like hip angle, angle on the hind legs, and the neck set on without a dip in front of the withers makes that mare worth her weight in gold in my book. When I find one of these, I then look at the breeding. Almost always do I find a solid Polish/Crabbet pedigree. Just my observations. I've always been taught to always breed up and to choose stallions that are not only strong where my mare may be weak, but also strong where my mare is strong. Which is why I think that the inspection process is so important and I really encourage everyone breeding this cross to get their mares inspected and then really look at the stallion and his scores/performance career before you choose.
    http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

    Comment


    • http://www.texasseahorse.com/BeyShaw.html

      Bey Shah had Polish Arab and I find those to be quite lovely. Also with the amount of successful get, he had to have something going for him.

      Originally posted by stripes View Post
      The Arabian side of her pedigree carries some very athletic blood, that said, most Arabian breeder's would call it Halter breeding. No fear here, my mare was bred for the sole purpose of Halter and she's approved AHS . She has 2 crosses to Bey Shah, this has good points and worrisome points to it. Bey Shah had so much charisma and presense - lots of snort and blow. The Bey Shah get tend to have very tight backs and shoulders, mostly due to the Snort & Blow. They can be tough to figure out, but once you bond with them, they will walk through fire for you. I have many endurance friends that like a little Bey Shah in the pedigree, they are tough, determined and have lots of energy. If there is one thing I can caution you when breeding... make sure the stallion you choose has very good pastern angles and hooves. A double Bey Shah will be more apt to produce short upright pasterns and a possible right front club. Length of cannon is could be problematic to, choose nice short strong cannons when stallion shopping. Eclipse was an excellent choice for your pony's dam - he has incredible legs!

      Fame VF has been the all time leading sire of Western Pl horses in Arabians, they are very pretty. JK Amadeus is mostly known for producing Halter, but has a good amount of get that did some performance. The rest of her pedigree is good polish, egyptian & crabbet breeding. She goes back to Azraff (great substance, trainability and legs) & Indraff both by Raffles by Skowronek, who was brought into the Crabbet herd to bring super athletism and pretty into the herd. There is an interesting thread on Arabian Breeders right now about Raffles. There is no denying the mark he made on the breed.

      All in all its a solid pedigree and if you watch out for the things I mentioned you'll be producing some nice babies when the time comes.
      Georgia Langsam
      Team Gauguin, LLC - www.teamgauguin.com
      Standing Gauguin du Cheval 9054, Prestige II TG, Gauguin's Impression, Gauguin's Brush and Weltfrieden TG

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        Originally posted by equusaround View Post
        http://www.texasseahorse.com/BeyShaw.html

        Bey Shah had Polish Arab and I find those to be quite lovely. Also with the amount of successful get, he had to have something going for him.
        Maybe you should re-read my post you quoted? I was pretty clear on the good and the bad. Plus I never said they weren't successful, they are incredibily successful, but is that because he was bred to everything under the sun and flooding the show arena? Also, I own a Bey Shah decendent, she's the queen of my breeding program, her connection to Bey Shah is through the incredible mare Bey Teyna. And to add a little bit more to this, I feel Bey Shah's very best get were from the mare TW Forteyna, Bey Teyna's dam. The get and grand get from this pairing have proven to be successful in everything from Endurance to Halter. Look at TW Forteyna's pedigree, she's by *Fortel who's out of the amazing mare Forta. This definitely played a huge part in the success of the pairing of Bey Shah & TW Forteyna. IMO, I'm not sure Bey Shah would have been as popular a breeding stallion without TW Forteyna's get by him. 2 National Champion Mares from this pairing.

        ETA - I noticed that there is no mention of the amazing dams of famous get you mention on your website - they deserve a huge part of the credit. And were mostly Polish bred. Bey Teyna & Shahteyna are both out of TW Forteyna who played ahuge part in the breeding success of Bey Shah. And it should be noted that Fame VF and Rave VF are also full brothers. I really wish Arabian people would seriously give the mares some credit. Maybe we would be breeding better horses if this was the case. JMHO & observations.
        http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          As I dive more into your link, the stallion is sired by none other than Bey Prost (Bey Shah x TW Forteyna). Again, the most successful pairing with Bey Shah.
          http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SportArab View Post
            And while we're on the topic of western horses, do you have any idea what the QH people do to get their ponies to carry their heads consistently down?
            A lot of it is breeding. I showed western during the "place anyone whose horses ears drop below the withers last" phase in the early 90s, and had several friends who had a hard time getting their horses' heads high enough. They just naturally wanted to drop them once relaxed in their bodies.

            My horse was more high headed, and I did a slight shoulder fore to get him to drop his head - it got him to relax his body and reach forward and out just like a dressage horse using its body correctly will want to. Not the same contact, of course, but still the same overall theory.


            A LOT of people use gadgets, drawreins harsh bits, yanking every time the judge looks away, whatever.
            If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
            -meupatdoes

            Comment


            • Someone asked a while back about Qredit's canter. Score from the training judge at his 70DT was 8.0 for canter, and 8.5 for cross-country gallop. Score from the two test judges was 9.5 for canter and 9.25 for cross-country gallop.

              Comment


              • Well if this doesn't say something to breeders about the Arabs and Half-Arabs, I don't know what would. Clearly there is a market there. Cheaper, smaller, easier (physically) to ride, and typically more sound. What's not to like?

                Trends in US Dressage:
                http://blog.centerlinescores.com/201...e-trends-pt-1/

                Breed Classes: the Rise of the Arabians

                One interesting thing to note. While the above does not reflect Breed-specific shows and classes, there were some interesting trends there. Beginning in 2009, there was a significant and distinct uptick in the # of Breed-Restricted classes and Breed shows with USEF/USDF recognized classes. From 2009 – 2012 there were roughly 4x the # of Breed-Specific Tests and 2x the # of shows offering Breed-specific classes (most of these were Breed Specific shows) when compared to a similar time period prior to 2009. In addition, approximately 65% of this volume could be attributed to Arabian (Arabian, Half-Arabian, Arab-Cross) breed classes. In second place (carrying approximately 5% of the breed specific volume) were Morgan classes. The remainder were distributed throughout a number of different breeds (including traditional warmbloods such as Oldenburgh and KWPN classes, etc.). If any reader has an opinion or is aware of a change in USEF or USDF policy that would have caused this spike, please let us know your thoughts.
                On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                Comment


                • Well, it's certainly good news for those of us who are breeding and might also have ponies for sale. I've got a couple that I'd be happy to keep, but could part with if the right person came along.

                  Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
                  Well if this doesn't say something to breeders about the Arabs and Half-Arabs, I don't know what would. Clearly there is a market there. Cheaper, smaller, easier (physically) to ride, and typically more sound. What's not to like?

                  Trends in US Dressage:
                  http://blog.centerlinescores.com/201...e-trends-pt-1/
                  co-author of
                  Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                  www.duelforthecrown.com

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    Does anyone know if Donarweiss has any half Arabian foals? I have been advised to cross my mare with De Niro and she's not really a frozen candidate, so I'm looking at De Niro sons. I see this boy quite a bit and have photographed him many times. Love his size, compact body and his trainability/ridability, plus the bonus is he's sabino. Just wondering if he has been used on an Arabian.
                    http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by stripes View Post
                      Does anyone know if Donnerweiss has any half Arabian foals? I have been advised to cross my mare with De Niro and she's not really a frozen candidate, so I'm looking at De Niro sons. I see this boy quite a bit and have photographed him amny times. Love his size, compact body and his trainability/ridability, plus the bonus is he's sabino. Just wondering if he has been used on an Arabian.
                      I don't know if Arabian, but I do know he has been crossed with some typy section B Welsh ponies and the results have been fabulous! I missed out on 2 of them for sale (one was sold before I called, and one I should have snatched up from someone on these boards while I could have afforded him ).

                      If I were to breed my filly to a warmblood he'd be my pick, I just love him. The only thing that some people would see as a negative is you certainly would not get any size out of the equation.
                      On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                      Comment


                      • I don't believe that Donarweiss is available for cooled semen, if you find out that he is, please let us know. I've seen a couple of his foals, very nice indeed.
                        www.brightfuturesporthorse.com
                        www.globalequinesires.com

                        Comment


                        • The size thing would be my hesitation. I'm relatively tall at 5'7" and have very long legs. I need a bigger horse - or at least one that has very well sprug ribs. And even though there is some demand for smaller warmbloods, there is still a much bigger one for those that are in the 16h range.

                          Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
                          I don't know if Arabian, but I do know he has been crossed with some typy section B Welsh ponies and the results have been fabulous! I missed out on 2 of them for sale (one was sold before I called, and one I should have snatched up from someone on these boards while I could have afforded him ).

                          If I were to breed my filly to a warmblood he'd be my pick, I just love him. The only thing that some people would see as a negative is you certainly would not get any size out of the equation.
                          co-author of
                          Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                          www.duelforthecrown.com

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SportArab View Post
                            The size thing would be my hesitation. I'm relatively tall at 5'7" and have very long legs. I need a bigger horse - or at least one that has very well sprug ribs. And even though there is some demand for smaller warmbloods, there is still a much bigger one for those that are in the 16h range.
                            IMO you are really likely to get a "hony" with him. His medium pony crosses stay in the pony range. Even crossed on bigger mares he downsizes much of the time from I have seen (from ads) and heard. And from my horse shopping mid-adventures, MANY of the horses listed at 16hh are closer to 15.2/3. I like to joke that a 15.2hh mare I bought as a 4 year old ended up measuring with an official stick at just over 15hh as a 7 year old (with shoes on).

                            I have not seen him in person, but I would bet most of my life savings he's not 16hh himself.
                            On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              I see him all the time and he's right at 16h, he's so compact it gives him a smaller appearance. Size is not a factor for me, so that isn't a concern. Just wondering if there were any examples. I know there will not be any fresh cooled semen for this breeding season, but I'm hoping by 2014 or 2015 that will change.

                              Perfect Pony - do have links to any photos of the pony crosses? I would be very interested in seeing them.

                              Anyone know if Devon Heir has any Arabian crosses? LOVE this boy and I've been watching him since 2004. I like that his dam is by Rubinstein, as this line has a very good track record for Arabians.
                              http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

                              Comment


                              • How tall is Genay?

                                Here are a couple ponies, just from a quick search.
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-3FKRHmyF4
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_nGBFmjDPc
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WCm93zV0GY

                                I can't find the videos of the couple more I saw for sale a couple years ago.
                                On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                                Comment


                                • The club foot issue is a serious one. Not just with the Bey Shah stuff either (and Fame was probably one of the least likely to pass on bad legs/feet or the wonky temperament that the Bey Shahs have been known for). I worked for one of the largest spanish breeding farms in the country, and the club foot issue was a serious one there (though the owner didn't seem to care or know?? ) as well. I think it's a combination of genetics (not breeding away/out of it, lack of culling), valuing type over correctness, bad shoeing, bad feeding...etc. I think the arab/WB crosses can be great, and am thankful for the inspection process to weed out those bad feet in what are supposed to be improvement sires/dams. There definitely is a culture of "Well, he's so pretty it doesn't matter" and "a little high/low is no big deal, he's sound anyway!" etc.

                                  It is very, very hard to find arabians with good legs and feet these days (even if the rest of the package is there in spades).

                                  Re: the croup/hip issues - there's a tendency in sporthorseland to immediately discount a somewhat flat croup without looking at the underlying structure and angles of the hip which is really more critical.

                                  Something less addressed in this thread that arabians bring IMO is being game and trying hard. I have the somewhat unique position of having worked at several Arab farms, then transitioned to a jumper/eventer/foxhunting facility, and now managing a dressage barn. Warmbloods have a lot more "No" in them in my experience, a little less easily motivated, etc. This isn't so much a knock on them, but Arabs (depending on breeding) really like to try to please with very little convincing. It makes them a little more sensitive and trainable in my view

                                  Comment


                                  • Donarweiss-Arabian mares

                                    http://www.hilltopfarminc.com/stalli...hts.html#Born2

                                    The foal named "Distinguished Gentleman" is out an Arabian mare. He was Champion foal of his inspection.

                                    Natalie at Hilltop said he has been bred to a couple Arabian mares with very good results.

                                    Comment


                                    • After years of riding arabs only, just bought myself a warmblood mare. I like her a lot, but definitely the next horse is going to be either an arab or an arab cross. I miss the game attitude and the smaller package. The mare is big and she knows it, lol!
                                      Personally partial to Polish and some racebred arabians. I look for good hip and really solid bone. My arabian gelding is domestic but is built like a tank. I've been told he's not the most attractive, but he's extremely athletic, and has never had a lame day since I've owned him.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Dazednconfused View Post
                                        Something less addressed in this thread that arabians bring IMO is being game and trying hard. I have the somewhat unique position of having worked at several Arab farms, then transitioned to a jumper/eventer/foxhunting facility, and now managing a dressage barn. Warmbloods have a lot more "No" in them in my experience, a little less easily motivated, etc. This isn't so much a knock on them, but Arabs (depending on breeding) really like to try to please with very little convincing. It makes them a little more sensitive and trainable in my view
                                        This, I believe, is what we should be promoting, both in terms of warmblood crosses and purebreds. Warmbloods (and the crosses, to a lesser degree) have little tolerance for our mistakes, imbalances, lack of skill. Arabians are such people pleasers they are willing to put up with a lot just for the sound of that "good boy."
                                        co-author of
                                        Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                                        www.duelforthecrown.com

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          Originally posted by SportArab View Post
                                          This, I believe, is what we should be promoting, both in terms of warmblood crosses and purebreds. Warmbloods (and the crosses, to a lesser degree) have little tolerance for our mistakes, imbalances, lack of skill. Arabians are such people pleasers they are willing to put up with a lot just for the sound of that "good boy."
                                          So true! Just had the best ride on my filly! She's a total green bean and she tries her heart out every day. Today we decided to ride from the arena back to the barn and even though she was unsure of what was up, she was game to go. Our first little trail ride together
                                          http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

                                          Comment

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