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Let's talk about Arabian/WB crosses

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  • Oh, she had really good scores. But they downgraded her in the overall mark and wrote "small size."

    They agreed she is a lovely mare and we discussed whether to go with Esser Ems or the GOV. But the inspector agreed that with some real size in her pedigree it could be a mistake to put her in the pony books because she might produce large and then where would I be.

    Originally posted by stripes View Post
    I see the trend heading to smaller horses for us vertically challenged peeps. The highest selling ammy horse at the Pacific Sporthorse Selection Auction was a 15.1h Hotline daughter. She created quite the bidding war and sold for 34k. She was 4yr. and green, but her size and her unflappable disposition was very attractive to many. She was the most popular =). Also, GRP are seeing their popularity rise, so I do not believe for a second that everyone is looking for larger horses.

    Interesting that a smaller mare would score less because of size. The 15.1h mare I just mentioned is a SPS Hanoverian mare. Since I do go to many inspections I have seen on many occasions a smaller mare with the highest scores, including GOV.
    co-author of
    Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
    www.duelforthecrown.com

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    • Originally posted by SendenHorse View Post
      Yes, of course can't beat a good Crabbet bred horse... I was talking about arabs I have seen successful in dressage (owned by friends) and/or ridden personally or owned. I admittedly am not in the "know" about arabs although I know a lot of people who show arabs I don't get into pedigree analysis. I bought my horse because he was talented, not his breeding per say. The Aladdin/aladdabaskin(?) horses I know are very hot, not ammature horses, but they are older now so maybe things have improved. VERY talented in dressage, and not just for the breed. GP all the way. (I don't tend to throw that term around as some do).
      I had one as a teen who was super trainable and sweet and took everything in stride. And 16 hands. I suspect he would have been a fabulous dressage horse and great fun had I been riding dressage and kept him! His sire was a little under 16 hands I think, but was also totally unflappable and fun to ride.
      If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
      -meupatdoes

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      • I rode a Khemosabi granddaughter who was one of the best horses of any breed I have ever ridden. She placed her first time out in a novice event, she could hold her own in any company in dressage, and she was the best trail horse I ever knew. She was probably not over 14.2, had lovely conformation, and I would give anything to find another just like her.
        Mystic Owl Sporthorses
        www.mysticowlsporthorses.com

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        • Originally posted by SportArab View Post
          Your mare is so CUTE!!!! Qredit looks like a hot mover. What's his canter like?
          Thanks! I just sold her 2011 colt by Jones Hall, too.

          I don't know. I haven't ridden it But he did win the N.A. 70 stallion test and had the highest dressage score, so I assume his canter must be OK
          The Inverted Y
          Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
          2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
          www.allanglos.net

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          • So what lines does my pony come from anyway? I have no idea.
            http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/flor+d+lune

            I would have to say as far as raw talent, Flora probably has the most I have ever seen for dressage when it comes to balance, and the ability for both collection and extensions. I don't know that I have ever seen or sat on a 3 year old as balanced as she is, and when she engages her hind end she can go like a rocket. When she decides to really move it is jaw dropping.

            Time will tell if she will want to come to the party and participate. So far she is living up to all the stereotypes of both an Arabian and the pony. Thankfully that also includes a constitution that is tough as nails, but a personality to match, a little too smart for her own good. 14.2hh but larger than life.

            I was thinking the other day that she could really be an amazing "hony" broodmare someday. So many of the really nice, athletic and sound large ponies and small horses I have seen have a dose of Arabian and pony crossed with smaller Warmbloods or TBs.
            On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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            • Original Poster

              Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
              So what lines does my pony come from anyway? I have no idea.
              http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/flor+d+lune

              I would have to say as far as raw talent, Flora probably has the most I have ever seen for dressage when it comes to balance, and the ability for both collection and extensions. I don't know that I have ever seen or sat on a 3 year old as balanced as she is, and when she engages her hind end she can go like a rocket. When she decides to really move it is jaw dropping.

              Time will tell if she will want to come to the party and participate. So far she is living up to all the stereotypes of both an Arabian and the pony. Thankfully that also includes a constitution that is tough as nails, but a personality to match, a little too smart for her own good. 14.2hh but larger than life.

              I was thinking the other day that she could really be an amazing "hony" broodmare someday. So many of the really nice, athletic and sound large ponies and small horses I have seen have a dose of Arabian and pony crossed with smaller Warmbloods or TBs.
              The Arabian side of her pedigree carries some very athletic blood, that said, most Arabian breeder's would call it Halter breeding. No fear here, my mare was bred for the sole purpose of Halter and she's approved AHS . She has 2 crosses to Bey Shah, this has good points and worrisome points to it. Bey Shah had so much charisma and presense - lots of snort and blow. The Bey Shah get tend to have very tight backs and shoulders, mostly due to the Snort & Blow. They can be tough to figure out, but once you bond with them, they will walk through fire for you. I have many endurance friends that like a little Bey Shah in the pedigree, they are tough, determined and have lots of energy. If there is one thing I can caution you when breeding... make sure the stallion you choose has very good pastern angles and hooves. A double Bey Shah will be more apt to produce short upright pasterns and a possible right front club. Length of cannon is could be problematic to, choose nice short strong cannons when stallion shopping. Eclipse was an excellent choice for your pony's dam - he has incredible legs!

              Fame VF has been the all time leading sire of Western Pl horses in Arabians, they are very pretty. JK Amadeus is mostly known for producing Halter, but has a good amount of get that did some performance. The rest of her pedigree is good polish, egyptian & crabbet breeding. She goes back to Azraff (great substance, trainability and legs) & Indraff both by Raffles by Skowronek, who was brought into the Crabbet herd to bring super athletism and pretty into the herd. There is an interesting thread on Arabian Breeders right now about Raffles. There is no denying the mark he made on the breed.

              All in all its a solid pedigree and if you watch out for the things I mentioned you'll be producing some nice babies when the time comes.
              http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

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              • I like him. Only issue with a young stallion is you don't have a lot of babies to go by to try to figure out what he's going to consistenly produce.

                Originally posted by themarchcat View Post
                co-author of
                Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                www.duelforthecrown.com

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                • Originally posted by stripes View Post
                  The Bey Shah get tend to have very tight backs and shoulders, mostly due to the Snort & Blow. They can be tough to figure out, but once you bond with them, they will walk through fire for you.
                  My Anglo stallion is by Bey Oro, by Bey Shah, and his back and shoulder is as loose as they come. And his mind is calm and relaxed, to the point that show rind announcers will comment on how relaxed and free he moves. He has been easy from day one (or he wouldn't be a stallion) so look at the individual and not on generalizations.
                  The Inverted Y
                  Thoroughbred and Anglo Arabian Sporthorses
                  2005 and 2007 USEF Breeder of the Year.
                  www.allanglos.net

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    Originally posted by allanglos View Post
                    My Anglo stallion is by Bey Oro, by Bey Shah, and his back and shoulder is as loose as they come. And his mind is calm and relaxed, to the point that show rind announcers will comment on how relaxed and free he moves. He has been easy from day one (or he wouldn't be a stallion) so look at the individual and not on generalizations.
                    Laura - I respectfully and wholeheartily disagree with your Bey Shah opinion. I rode a Bey Oro daughter out of a Bey Shah granddaughter that was impossible to relax over her topline. The Bey Shah blood brings HEAT or Snort & Blow. There are WAY TOO MANY that share this characteristic, hence the generalization. People need to be aware of certain characteristics when breeding on. That said, I personally love a little Bey Shah in a pedigree, love the look, spirit & charisma it brings. I also like it to be Grandsire or further back, a little Bey Shah goes a long way.
                    http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

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                    • It all depends on what the Bey Shah was crossed on. There's a reason there have been so many western horses sired by Fame VF - he, himself was a much calmer horse.

                      Having lived in the Bay Area when Bey Shah was big out there, I got a chance to see a lot of Bey Shah babies.

                      Yes, some of them were extraordinarily hot - and some where not. I remember a mare out of Judah that was so hot she would flip out coming back to her stall if the shavings were banked a little differently then when she left. She produced some very sensible babies, however.

                      I'd say that the NV Beau Bey babies have a tendency to heat. But if you start working with them intensively early in life they can mellow out a lot.

                      My sense was that the Bey Oro babies were, on average, less hot. I think, given that Laura has had so many Bey Oro babies, that she's got a good handle on what they are like.

                      I do remember, btw, when Mike Neal showed him as a 2-year-old down in Scottsdale. That was something to see.
                      co-author of
                      Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                      www.duelforthecrown.com

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        Originally posted by SportArab View Post
                        It all depends on what the Bey Shah was crossed on. There's a reason there have been so many western horses sired by Fame VF - he, himself was a much calmer horse.

                        Having lived in the Bay Area when Bey Shah was big out there, I got a chance to see a lot of Bey Shah babies.

                        Yes, some of them were extraordinarily hot - and some where not. I remember a mare out of Judah that was so hot she would flip out coming back to her stall if the shavings were banked a little differently then when she left. She produced some very sensible babies, however.

                        I'd say that the NV Beau Bey babies have a tendency to heat. But if you start working with them intensively early in life they can mellow out a lot.

                        My sense was that the Bey Oro babies were, on average, less hot. I think, given that Laura has had so many Bey Oro babies, that she's got a good handle on what they are like.

                        I do remember, btw, when Mike Neal showed him as a 2-year-old down in Scottsdale. That was something to see.
                        Lots of Bey Oro in my part of the world, I live about 40 miles from where he lived. Several of them have actually done well in Hunter Pl, Western, Pl. and some in Dressage. BUT I have seen many of them longed into the ground every morning to make them more relaxed and quiet when they show. Same with the Fame VF bred horses. 4 am at an Arabian show is something to watch. Also keep in mind that Laura is breeding anglos and I really give credit to her mares before I give the credit to the Bey Shah sire line.
                        http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by stripes View Post
                          Lots of Bey Oro in my part of the world, I live about 40 miles from where he lived. Several of them have actually done well in Hunter Pl, Western, Pl. and some in Dressage. BUT I have seen many of them longed into the ground every morning to make them more relaxed and quiet when they show. Same with the Fame VF bred horses. 4 am at an Arabian show is something to watch. Also keep in mind that Laura is breeding anglos and I really give credit to her mares before I give the credit to the Bey Shah sire line.

                          As far as I'm concerned that's more a symptom of a certain kind of Arabian trainer than it is of the horses. Case in point. I acquired an Odessy SC daughter last summer who had been shown successfully MR halter and hunters. She got the standard longeing-for-hours treatment when she was showing as a hunter pleasure horse.

                          I'm retraining her right now and am using longeing only to teach her how to drop her head and use her back. She's a perfectly sensible girl, even though she'll sometimes stop and do the snort and blow thing when you're leading her out to the field in the morning.

                          Under saddle she's just lovely. I'm hoping to have her ready for next year's SHN (in hand, SHUS, and maybe working hunters). She's a quick learner and is happy to learn this new way of going. All it's taken is some consistent work in side reins set low.

                          I don't longe any of mine to calm them down. In fact, I find that strategy completely counterrpoductive. It just creates a very fit horse, not an attentive one.
                          co-author of
                          Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                          www.duelforthecrown.com

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            Its a symptom that we have to take into account when assessing certain bloodlines in Arabians. Just saying that many of those Fame VF horses that do so well in Western may have been longed forever every morning at a show before they are shown, I know Bret Becker does this as a practice, as do many other BN Western trainers. One of my best friend owns a lovely Fame VF son out of a Raffon daughter, he's 20 this year and still has Snort & Blow - he had a very illustrious career as a WP horse, knowing him as I do now, later in life, they had to longe him into the groud and he's very much a frisky chicken. Cute to see, but not in the show ring. What made the Fame VF horses so successful was the "look". They are built for WP with their beautiful shaped necks and bigger booty, they carry the tack extremely well.
                            http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

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                            • My point is that this is not a great way to train tho it is endemic to the breed shows. Most of the big trainers do this (or have their minions do it).

                              It doesn't matter what the horse's disposition is like - this is how Arab trainers "train."

                              Yes, Fame VF horses do have the right look for WP. But crazy, flighty horses can't be longed down, no matter how long you have them on the line. And in the end, as I said, this strategy doesn't work. It just makes the horse more fit, which then requires more longing. Training the horse properly will solve the problem.

                              And while we're on the topic of western horses, do you have any idea what the QH people do to get their ponies to carry their heads consistently down?
                              Originally posted by stripes View Post
                              Its a symptom that we have to take into account when assessing certain bloodlines in Arabians. Just saying that many of those Fame VF horses that do so well in Western may have been longed forever every morning at a show before they are shown, I know Bret Becker does this as a practice, as do many other BN Western trainers. One of my best friend owns a lovely Fame VF son out of a Raffon daughter, he's 20 this year and still has Snort & Blow - he had a very illustrious career as a WP horse, knowing him as I do now, later in life, they had to longe him into the groud and he's very much a frisky chicken. Cute to see, but not in the show ring. What made the Fame VF horses so successful was the "look". They are built for WP with their beautiful shaped necks and bigger booty, they carry the tack extremely well.
                              co-author of
                              Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                              www.duelforthecrown.com

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                              • Original Poster

                                LOL - my point is we have to take this into account when looking at Arabians to cross on WB's. I can't fix how Arabians are trained or presented, but I can and do look into every single pedigree of any Arabian that interests me. Arabians are presented with smoke and mirrors and nobody wants to talk about the truth. When we talk about the truth people then get offended and start posting random exceptions - as an example, Laura's post. This does not change that the majority is something different than the exception. And it doesn't mean that exceptions don't exsist, but its important to talk about when breeding, especially when crossing with WB's for the purpose of sport.

                                So that it doesn't become all about Bey Shah... another popular bloodline that has produced many sport type horses is Khemosabi++++. If we want to talk about these horses, honestly, they have many positives, but also have some important faults that should be discussed, like their legs and hooves for example. Great trainable ammy friendly dispositions, but they have proven to be difficult to keep sound and too many of them do not have the optimum hindend for upper level dressage. They tend to be very level in the croup and are loose coupled along with being a bit straight behind. There are good ones, but its important to look at everything. JMHO when breeding.
                                http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

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                                • The problem is, it's very hard, unless you have the horse yourself, to get a good sense of how much is unto the horse and how much is man-made. My Odessy SC daughter was trained to move like a MR hunter pleasure horse, which means she hadn't a clue of how to come through her back when she got here. But she was very nice and loose in the back. And no matter how nervous she gets, her back stays relaxed.

                                  In the videos I watched before getting her, her lower lip was flapping a mile a minute. You might have thought she was a Nervous Nell. But that habit has gone with correct work and she's totally settled down.

                                  Unfortunately, most folks I see training MR Arabs don't know how to work with a sensitive horse. I very much enjoy them because they are like a well tuned sports car once you get them trained right. Just think about doing something and they are there.

                                  I would agree with you on the Khemo horses with respect to the sub optimal hind end angles, but have never heard anything about bad legs or unsoundness. But then again, consider how most of these poor beasts are shod to do MR work and it's a wonder any of them stay sound.
                                  co-author of
                                  Duel for the Crown: Affirmed, Alydar, and Racing's Greatest Rivalry
                                  www.duelforthecrown.com

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                                  • Tough to figure out would be a good way to describe my filly. Funny thing is, she can be hot for a minute. She tires rather quickly of it however. Thankfully she has a lazy side that feels keeping up the crazy arab routine is far too much work.
                                    On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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                                    • Original Poster

                                      Originally posted by Perfect Pony View Post
                                      Tough to figure out would be a good way to describe my filly. Funny thing is, she can be hot for a minute. She tires rather quickly of it however. Thankfully she has a lazy side that feels keeping up the crazy arab routine is far too much work.
                                      I sure Eclipse handed down his amazing disposition When you are to the point of actually breeding her, just keep her Arabian pedigree in mind when you choose your mate for her. Your pony is quite lovely, can't wait to see her in person.
                                      http://www.tamarawiththecamera.com

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                                      • Oh I will never breed her! Although she will be spending the winter with a very sexy RID. Wonder what a RID, Arabian, Connemara cross would be like, lol.

                                        Someone should breed her at some point, she's pretty cool. But I just want to ride, and this is my last youngster.
                                        On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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                                        • The one thing that bothers me about using Arabian's is the club foot issue it was something that I was very mindfull about when looking for a baby daddy. My mare is not club footed but it exists in almost every pedigree due to stallions and breeding mares not being culled. Fact is in Aus so many Arabians have a club foot of some type that it is almost normal.

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