• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Breeding a mare with Neuro Issues

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Breeding a mare with Neuro Issues

    I am really struggling with the ethics of this, but trying to MYOB. Hoping to either know my fears are unfounded, or be kicked into action.

    Horse has ok breeding. Young, not approved as she hurt her neck before she could go to inspection. Small, but a nice enough mover, and good minded girl.

    Horse shows neurological symptoms oddly similar to mine, which I think is why this is hitting me so hard. Things like unable to deal with cold (shivers even blanketed in not that cold weather), over reaction to sensations (shakes voilently), sometimes falls down in the field for no apparent reason.

    So owner doesn't have a tonne of money and wants a horse to ride, so got a new one. Needs to get this one off her bill, so looking for a breeding lease home. her hope is that in the year horse will get better. (I keep hoping that for myself, but I keep getting worse.)

    My worries are: carrying the foal will strain her spine and make her worse off, but that the person who has spent the money breeding her, will have some rights to keeping the mare going so they get their foal...or that the owner of the mare will have to reimburse them some costs if they have to abort the baby or put the mare down.

    What are the "laws" regarding the rights to the unborn foal vs the mare?

    Not sure how much the person coming to see her to lease her knows about her condition...let's face it, neurological issues aren't well understood by human doctors, and even less so by vets.

    Torn between hoping I am worrying for nothing, and thinking that mare is going to suffer horribly trying to carry a foal and give birth.

    Advice?
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

  • #2
    I have a mare that is very, very slightly neurological. She cannot swing evenly from behind, but that's really the extend of her symptoms. She does not fall down and she is not dangerous to handle.

    I have serious concerns breeding HER. There is no way in hell I would breed a mare as profoundly affected as the one you are describing.

    However, there are no LAWS that would prevent your friend from breeding the mare. The mare is her property and she may do with her as she wishes, as long as she provides the very basic care required by the animal welfare laws. (Food, water, shelter.)

    As the mare is not yours, there's nothing at all you can do. Perhaps you can voice your concerns, depending on your relationship with the owner. If she's not willing to listen, then it's time to butt out. (Unless, of course, you are willing to take the mare on as a pasture pet?)

    Frankly, I would investigate euthanasia for a horse that was falling down in the field with little hope of recovery, especially if I had to "get her off the bill."

    Comment


    • #3
      I think it is one of those things that you never know until you try but I sure as heck wouldn't try it. Agree with the euth if breeding is the only other option.
      McDowell Racing Stables

      Home Away From Home

      Comment


      • #4
        Oh how terribly sad Any horse that is falling down just walking in a field should be humanly euthanized IMO. It would be horribly cruel to breed her.

        My neurological mare also had a "funky" immune system that resulted in some odd medical issues. This caused very unexpected reactions to things like vaccines, anesthetics, etc. I would never, ever risk breeding her given the unknowns.

        I just cannot believe how people think...
        On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

        Comment


        • #5
          I personally, would consider breeding a mare like this to be unethical, inhumane, and unreasonable!!! Just how desperate are these people to make this poor mare pay her own way as a broodmare??? With the numbers of unwanted HEALTHY horses in the country, is breeding this mare really necessary??
          www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
          Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            When the horse was first hurt, I thought she should put it down...but you know how people are...everyone else was trying to cheer her up and tell her not to give up hope...so I feel a little like a doomsayer.

            I think she is just trying to put off the inevitable hard decision of putting her down...or not having a riding horse until this mare's condition is more stable (I think she should be in a barn...or Florida... until she can handle the cold better..but that costs $$$). She IS a good person, but I think she just doesn't want to make the hard decision, or make personal sacrifices.

            My worry legally was more if the mare's condition got a lot worse say, 6 months into pregnancy. What rights and liabilities would the mare's owner have to put her down or terminate? The potential breeding lease person is doing AI with frozen semen, so will have considerable money invested by then. Even with a live foal guarrentee, there would be the vet bills, board/feed bills, shipping fees and so on.

            Glad you feel as I do though. This is really getting to me, so I think I have to say something more. Now what to say?
            Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CHT View Post
              My worry legally was more if the mare's condition got a lot worse say, 6 months into pregnancy. What rights and liabilities would the mare's owner have to put her down or terminate? The potential breeding lease person is doing AI with frozen semen, so will have considerable money invested by then. Even with a live foal guarrentee, there would be the vet bills, board/feed bills, shipping fees and so on.
              This is completely between the owner of the mare and whoever leases her to breed. All of this should be outlined in the contract detailing the relationship, and this scenario is one of many reasons why a contract detailing "what ifs?" is exceedingly important when one enters into a breeding lease situation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Imagine how you may feel if she falls on her foal or steps on it...heartbreak city and another ruined life. Plus you cannot be sure if there was a genetic predisposition to this injury. Deffinitly do not breed this mare. She may recover and devlelope new nerve pathways that make her able to stand and be safe...or she may be worse. She may injure her head in a fall. Dont breed her till she is able to stand and not fall down any more at the very least. She does not sound special enough to breed anyway. Broodmares should be excellent to be reproducing not average or mediocre. Sorry..........

                Comment


                • #9
                  I am also in the camp of not breeding her. It just doesn't sound safe for her or her prospective foal.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    to bad it is not the OPs horse. Sounds like breeding may happen anyway and it is a sad thing. Mare and foal are at risk for further injury
                    Draumr Hesta Farm
                    "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
                    Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      No, not my horse! Horsie and I just share symptoms.

                      Owner has someone coming up this weekend to see her. Horse would be going 3 hours away, and bred by frozen semen to a stallion a full hand taller than her. Horse is young, and it would be her first foal.

                      I was hoping that I could come up with a potential liability issue to warn her about to help her change her mind.

                      Hopefully I am worrying for nothing...but I don't think so.

                      I let her know I was concerned about the ethics/end result of her doing this, and hoped she would reconsider. We will see.
                      Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        is she disclosing all of this mare's issues to the leasee?
                        Draumr Hesta Farm
                        "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
                        Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I definitely would not be breeding a mare like that. There are WAY too many horses out there and just because it is able to be bred does not me it should be.

                          I would worry that the added strain and stress on the mare could really put her into some health risks and by default risking her unborn foal.

                          Sometimes the kinder thing is the hardest thing to do.

                          I would have a hard time keeping my mouth shut on this one and if it were me I would be explaining all the possible negatives that could result from breeding her.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Do you know the vet the owner uses and does the owner trust the vet? Would it be possible to talk to the vet and ask the vet to talk to the owner about how this is a cruel and unwise idea? Or is there another trusted third party that could talk to the owner?

                            I feel really sorry for this poor horse. As others have mentioned, it just seems like there are any number of ways that trying to breed this mare could go badly wrong.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Many years ago a client sent a mare to our farm (we trained race horses) to board. Mare already had a foal at her side when she arrived and undisclosed or known by the breeder (breeding farm did not mention it) the mare was SEVERELY neurological...to the point that walking off the van at our farm her LH was stepping all over the handler's feet as he walked at her head!! We immediately informed the owner, but at that point there was nothing that could be changed...we just tried to keep her and her foal safe and quiet. The mare's condition continued to deterioate to the point that she could hardly get to her feet after lying down. One day while DH was at the track 20 miles away the mare, in her attempt to stand, lurched forward shattering her LF leg like a chicken bone. The poor horse had to stay in that condition until a vet could get there from 20 miles away to euth her. Not a nice memory. To say nothing of the three month old "orphan" we were left to care for. Nope...too many healthy broodmares to breed!!
                              www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                              Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Never would breed a mare with that condition, minor or severe. Ever.
                                Practice! Patience! Persistence!
                                http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
                                https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Well according to her, the vet has ok'd breeding her. I believe this as vets (and human doctors) seem to have a poor understanding of spinal injuries, so I think it is just that the vet sees that the horse's original injury is healing well, so should be fine to breed.

                                  The fact that the vet cannot explain the other issues seems to only concern me...but then I don't think the horse has had any "episodes" around the vet.

                                  I know that she is letting the person talk to her vet, which is good. Not sure if she is telling her all the issues or not, but I don't think she is omitting things she feels are relevant...I just don't know if she thinks the recent issues are relevant, or things that will heal too.

                                  Hopefully I am wrong, and that the horse will continue to heal and get better...I just wish she was allowed to do that first.
                                  Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    UGH - this is a sad sad situation to be in...Perhaps the best you can do is to tell the owner how unsafe it isto mom and prospective foal to try and breed her- review the many things that could happen. And tell her that it is also her obligation to fully disclose the mare's health to any prospective lease candidate, otherwise she is likely to be faced w/ a lawsuit to recover costs, etc if something happens. I may be way wrong but I find it hard to believe that a live foal guarantee would cover a mare that is basically not OK to begin with?
                                    One could only hope that anyone who thinks about taking her will consult their own vet first... If she has falling issues now, you would think the added weight of the foal would only make that worse.
                                    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........

                                    Comment

                                    Working...
                                    X