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Educate me on crossing full Saddlebred with Oldenburg breeding

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  • #21
    A few years back, the approved Oldenburg stallion Sure Hit (Sandro Hit / Furioso II) had several Saddlebred breeders keen on using him to produce dressage prospects. There is a photo of one of the resulting foals on his foal page at http://www.shannondale.com/surehit-gallery.aspx (it is the pinto colored foal.)

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    • #22
      Lovely foal, I would LOVE to see him as a mature horse!!
      www.jlsporthorsesales.net

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by silvia View Post
        The Friesian cross works because they have similar conformation and front especially the more modern type, just more bone/heavier movement.

        So if you're going to look for the cross look for something with modern light Warmblood and you might have more luck; I would personally avoid anything that looked too heavy. having said that, I am sure now someone will prove me wrong by producing a sensational heavy type cross
        I'm not sure why the Frisean/SB would work so well, since the biggest problem with Friesens is that they were bred to pull, not to ride, so they are conformed accordingly.

        I know their breeders have been working to get a more "ridable" horse than before, but I would have thought it would be a short road by simply using lighter WBs or TBs.

        Can you explain why you would go to another breed that had the same short comings in terms of conformation (for the sport of dressage)that just using WBs?

        Also, it terms of breeding it would mean a short road to full OldNA or such approval in the Main Books.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
          I'm not sure why the Frisean/SB would work so well, since the biggest problem with Friesens is that they were bred to pull, not to ride, so they are conformed accordingly.

          I know their breeders have been working to get a more "ridable" horse than before, but I would have thought it would be a short road by simply using lighter WBs or TBs.

          Can you explain why you would go to another breed that had the same short comings in terms of conformation (for the sport of dressage)that just using WBs?

          Also, it terms of breeding it would mean a short road to full OldNA or such approval in the Main Books.
          I tend to agree - I think the Friesian/Saddlebreds often make VERY flashy young horses, huge trots, beautiful necks, but I do agree in general, this is not the formula for upper level horses. Although there are exceptions to that - partly because some Friesians do actually have an excellent "sit" mechanism - I had one that was a natural at piaffe and passage. The breed was originally a riding (war) horse, and in more recent history, became a driving horse. There is still some of that riding horse capability deep inside. And ocassionally you do get a fabulous canter out of that combo!

          But - I do prefer the Friesian/Warmblood cross, I think it makes for a more dressage oriented cross. I like the Friesian temperment (which is probably why the F/S cross is also popular - the Friesian tames down the fiery) and the bone - again, a positive for crossing to the Saddlebred.

          It is interesting when you start crossing - sometimes the results can be much better the the individual parents. And if you can get back to the older style Saddlebreds, there are some quality horses out there.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
            I'm not sure why the Frisean/SB would work so well, since the biggest problem with Friesens is that they were bred to pull, not to ride, so they are conformed accordingly.

            I know their breeders have been working to get a more "ridable" horse than before, but I would have thought it would be a short road by simply using lighter WBs or TBs.

            Can you explain why you would go to another breed that had the same short comings in terms of conformation (for the sport of dressage)that just using WBs?

            Also, it terms of breeding it would mean a short road to full OldNA or such approval in the Main Books.
            The Saddlebred is also bred to drive and is a hot blood; no draft in its pedigree. That makes it a more reliable refiner for a breed like the Friesian than the Thoroughbred, especially in consideration of the fact that it has many of the desirable traits for riding (good thinking mind, forward minded, agile, athletic, strong constitution, good health, good endurance).

            People tend to gravitate towards those breeds because they are a much easier horse to train. Conformational shortcomings for dressage tend to be more than outweighed by advantages in ease of learning, willingness and lack of explosions (for want of a better term!) Both breeds have been to GP level which is great considering the relatively small number actually being directed to higher level dressage.

            So to answer the second part, why not just use WB instead to cross - there's nothing wrong with doing that cross but generally the mindset and the way both go about their business is very different and then you run risks of ending up with a smart horse that doesn't want to work and then you are really in the shit. Generally people use Saddlebred because they want a horse they can ride and not their trainer; so to risk losing that lovely willingness to gain some suspension is often a risk they are not willing to take.

            The right type of WB in my opinion is very modern with a lot of TB and has a similar front and an excellent agile mind and temperament. To me to cross a more heavy draught influenced phenotype where the horse is a little slower and not as willing to be best friends would probably be a risky venture.

            So why then would Friesian work? similar fronts, both bred to be modern drivers, similar mental attitudes. Mostly the mindset, which is crucial for an easy horse to train.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by silvia View Post

              The right type of WB in my opinion is very modern with a lot of TB and has a similar front and an excellent agile mind and temperament. To me to cross a more heavy draught influenced phenotype where the horse is a little slower and not as willing to be best friends would probably be a risky venture.
              I agree, which is why I found myself an old-style Saddlebred mare to cross with modern WB stallions. My 15.2hh mare has 8 inches of bone, size 2 feet and wears a 50 inch girth and a 76"-78" blanket (depending on make) and wears a wide/extra wide gullet. She's tanky, and I LOVE it. She moves out, not up & down, and her first fillly by a modern-type stallion is SOLID. Not coarse, she definitely has refinement, but you could park a bus between her perfectly straight front legs. I can't WAIT to cross her to another stallion - i'm eyeing Harvard or Furstenball at this point... *sigh* if only the economy wasn't in the toilet. LOL
              www.jlsporthorsesales.net

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              • #27
                We just purchased another mare for import:

                http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...81802798_n.jpg

                One of her stallion sons:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=o9wJzEB6NG8

                Comment


                • #28
                  As someone else mentioned on this thread, there's Saddlebreds, and there's Saddlebreds. There really are two different types of the same breed. That being said, crossing a hot, saddleseat or showdriving Saddlebred with a Friesian makes no sense if one is trying to produce dressage horses. I think that some people believe the cross "works" because those types of Saddlebreds have many similarities to Friesians,(extremely upheaded with vertical necksets, lots of knee action, and unfortunately long backs and weak loins) and the resulting foals look more like purebred Friesians. In other words, no improvement in the foals for the desired discipline.

                  I can see the possibility of using a true sporthorse type Saddlebred with a Friesian, but even then, if someone is trying to breed dressage horses from Friesians, why not do the no-brainer and cross them with proven dressage stallions?
                  www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
                  Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
                  with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by silvia View Post
                    The Saddlebred is also bred to drive and is a hot blood; no draft in its pedigree. That makes it a more reliable refiner for a breed like the Friesian than the Thoroughbred, especially in consideration of the fact that it has many of the desirable traits for riding (good thinking mind, forward minded, agile, athletic, strong constitution, good health, good endurance).
                    Your statement isn't making any sense. There's no draft blood in TB's either. And there's really no draft blood in any modern WB's. If one is trying to bring better riding qualities to a breed that has been traditionally bred for driving (Friesians), then it simply makes sense to cross with proven riding horses of the desired discipline.
                    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
                    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
                    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Plus, technically, the ASB is a warm blood. They are a cross between TBs and "native stock". And yes, there is some "Percheron" via the native stock from Canada, as well as Flemish drafts in the Massachusetts area.

                      "Hot" bloods are TBs and Arabians.
                      ::I do not understand your specific kind of crazy, but I do admire your total commitment to it::

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        The Saddlebred ........ That makes it a more reliable refiner for a breed like the Friesian than the Thoroughbred
                        Actually, Warmblood and Thoroughbred are the preferred choice for crossing with Friesians to produce sport types, or Friesian Sporthorses.

                        Friesian/Saddlebred is also an accepted cross, but in a lower book. Of the many, many breeds people cross with Friesians, Friesian/Saddlebred is better than most of the alternatives, but not as proven as Friesian/Wbld and Friesian/TB. Friesian/Wbld and Friesian/TB remain the gold standard.

                        (And that is not to knock Saddlebreds, as I've seen some very nice ones, and I certainly became more educated about what they had to offer crossbreeders because I was on the registry board when it was first proposed to add Saddlebred as an accepted cross for Friesians.)

                        As a sidenote, the FSA High Performance National Champion for 2012 is a Friesian/TB and the Reserve Champion is a Friesian/Saddlebred.

                        For anyone interested in learning more about Friesian Sporthorses, this is a great article, and it touches on some of the logic behind which breeds are recommended for crossbreeding vs which are discouraged. There's also a lot of great information on the FSA registry's website, too. (magazine article about Friesian Sporthorses)

                        Sorry for the sidebar, but I noticed the thread had branched off to discussing Friesian crossbreeding
                        River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                          A few years back, the approved Oldenburg stallion Sure Hit (Sandro Hit / Furioso II) had several Saddlebred breeders keen on using him to produce dressage prospects. There is a photo of one of the resulting foals on his foal page at http://www.shannondale.com/surehit-gallery.aspx (it is the pinto colored foal.)
                          Do you know more about them? I'd love to see the results.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by ASBJumper View Post
                            her first fillly by a modern-type stallion is SOLID.
                            Do you have photos? Who did you breed her to?

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I've always wanted to breed her to him.


                              But I'm too much of a weenie to breed my mare, for fear of all that could go wrong! One can dream though, right? fwiw, I've seen some knock out gorgeous Friesian crosses in the hunt field. One is Georgian Grande and the other cross with TB. Stunning.
                              http://www.foxhuntingfriesian.blogspot.com
                              http://www.isherwoodstudios.blogspot.com

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Daatje View Post
                                I've always wanted to breed her to him.
                                If you ever do it, I want to see the foal!

                                I bred two Friesian Sporthorse foals by Sempatico. One was sold in-utero, the other was sold as a weanling. One of them recently went to a USEA FEH (Future Event Horse) competition as a 2YO and had the highest score of all horses presented. You can see both of them on this page if you're interested FSA foals by Sempatico

                                Hidden Promise Sporthorses (the farm that had Nico) also has two pinto stallions (a Nico son and grandson) who look interesting. "Adonai" and "King of Kings". (Hidden Promise Sporthorses, stallions) They also have top notch pedigrees, so there would be no problems registering their offspring.

                                -Gigha
                                River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by 53 View Post
                                  Thanks so much for the input so far, I've PM'd Formossus and ASBjumper, I was very impressed with the colt's video and wanted to know more about the cross from a wider audience as I haven't seen any in person and am unfamiliar and wanted to educate myself!
                                  I am an adult amateur eventer and have had my 11 year old Oldenburg/Saddlebred cross for four years now. His sire is MSM Bachir. Before I had him he had 4 years of dressage training. Last month we completed the Training Three Day Event at Galway Downs, which was a huge goal for me as it was the highest level either of us have competed at.
                                  I have always ridden hot thoroughbred mares in the past so it has been nice to be on a quiet level headed guy. I take him to the beach and trail rides with friends and always feel very safe on him. I would highly recommend the breed.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    I would love to do dressage with a Saddlebred partner. As someone who has spent a lot of time with the breed, I agree with a previous comment that they can be "hot" horses, but I think they are somewhat unfairly thought of as not versatile and/or only good for driving and Saddleseat performance. I can attest to having ridden a champion fine harness Saddlebred who is also fantastic under saddle, and 5-gaited and 3-gaited Saddlebreds who both prefer lower headsets and would've been good dressage prospects in another life. No, they're not Totilas, but I'm also not Edward Gal, so it's okay!

                                    I think that the New Yorker line is good to cross with personally. It's the same line that produced Saddlebreds Harry Callahan and Forty Something - Harry showed at the Grand Prix level and Forty Something to Prix St. George, I believe. I also like the way the Wing Commander/View Valley Supreme crosses move. Fun fact of the day: Wing Commander appeared on the cover of Life magazine in the 1950s as an example of a great American athlete :-)

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Several years ago when I was in Britain, a friend told me about someone introducing saddlebred blood to their breeding program to get a higher neck set for jumpers.
                                      Take it with a grain of salt, that was the comment given to me.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by twelvebelles View Post
                                        I would love to do dressage with a Saddlebred partner. As someone who has spent a lot of time with the breed, I agree with a previous comment that they can be "hot" horses, but I think they are somewhat unfairly thought of as not versatile and/or only good for driving and Saddleseat performance. I can attest to having ridden a champion fine harness Saddlebred who is also fantastic under saddle, and 5-gaited and 3-gaited Saddlebreds who both prefer lower headsets and would've been good dressage prospects in another life. No, they're not Totilas, but I'm also not Edward Gal, so it's okay!

                                        I think that the New Yorker line is good to cross with personally. It's the same line that produced Saddlebreds Harry Callahan and Forty Something - Harry showed at the Grand Prix level and Forty Something to Prix St. George, I believe. I also like the way the Wing Commander/View Valley Supreme crosses move. Fun fact of the day: Wing Commander appeared on the cover of Life magazine in the 1950s as an example of a great American athlete :-)
                                        I know of a NSH mare with New Yorker bloodlines on the SB side who was bred to Rubignon. It's a 2012 filly, but so far she looks like she will be very nice...
                                        Originally posted by Silverbridge
                                        If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by PossumHorse View Post
                                          Several years ago when I was in Britain, a friend told me about someone introducing saddlebred blood to their breeding program to get a higher neck set for jumpers.
                                          Take it with a grain of salt, that was the comment given to me.
                                          There's a high proportion of showjumping Saddlebreds here - they are athletic over poles.

                                          Personally I think that whenever you reach for Thoroughbred to refine, Saddlebred should be a consideration. This due to the high proportion of shared blood, still being a hotblood, but being bred for riding rather than racing.

                                          They are extremely agile and active in mind and body, great constitutions, great legs and feet, still very refined but it's really for me all down to the mental ability of the horse - they just handle pressure well and when you're in a pickle that really counts for something.

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