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At the end of the day ... what does it all REALLY mean???

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  • #21
    A stallions breeding success has a lot to do with his ability to attract 'enough' of the 'right' mares for himself. But, the performance test does give us information about the likelyhood of success in sport for these young stallions and their basic health. Things are learned or uncovered that maybe a owner would not want one to know...I really think the very threat of such things as roaring, cribbing, weaving in the stall and other things being discovered keeps some stallions out of the gene pool because the owners knows better than to send them. Also, there are geldings out there than look as good and can outperform some of these stallions. Ravel was an approved stallion that was gelded to make him a better performer in sport. So, the stallion "passing" is only a beginning. And the cost is HUGE but not much more than the same amount of time spent in a top training barn these days. And they do get really good, supervised training....none of the horrors some have had with trainers who take the horse, charge for work they never do. It is also an honor to have a stallion pass the test. Its not easy at all. Rather it is almost grueling and only tough horses can make it without injury. But, no it alone does not guarantee a lot of income or any income for the stallion owner....its just a starting point. Like graduating from high school before one goes to college...now these boys have to go out in sport and the breeding shed to prove themselves.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
      Definitely. The test is just another piece of information and I'm glad it is available here.



      I put a lot more weight on results in the ring, but if they are not out there showing and they didn't score well in the test, I wouldn't look at them unless their offspring start showing up in the big ring.



      Thanks for the laugh!! Have you ever shown on the AA circuit? This test is a bargain for meeting the selection requirements as opposed to going the performance route.
      I agree with all of these points.
      And yes, had to laugh too at the "exhorbitant costs" comment.
      It is much less expensive than going the performance route, which is what I did with A Fine Romance. Now, THOSE costs were 'exhorbitant' - but to me,a necessary part of the process.

      In the end of course, the true test of a stallion is what he produces.

      Congratulations to all the stallion owners and best of luck to all the stallions in all their future endeavours.
      A Fine Romance. April 1991 - June 2016. Loved forever.

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      • #23
        TrueColours, after approval the stallion is evaluated for the next 10 years solely with respect to his progeny. There is no need to see him again because a decision has already been made about his own genotype, athleticism, and phenotype.
        Morningside Stud
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        • Original Poster

          #24
          In that case ^ its a great idea and one that more WB registries should adopt for sure to ensure only the best producing stallions are allowed to remain in the gene pool going forward ...
          www.TrueColoursFarm.com
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          • #25
            Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
            In that case ^ its a great idea and one that more WB registries should adopt for sure to ensure only the best producing stallions are allowed to remain in the gene pool going forward ...
            How many lousy-producing stallions are still being used 10 years later anyway? Come to that, what percentage of stallions in North American are still being used 10 years later at all?

            The market is already self-selecting for young stallions, and the idea that breeders are reaching back in the gene pool to select lousy producers is fiction. The model is unworkable (for North America at least, I can't comment on how it would work in a country as small as Ireland). Simply keeping performance statistics (one horse, one number, for life) would do a much better job for the same end, and be much more reliable.
            "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

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            • #26
              "How many lousy-producing stallions are still being used 10 years later anyway? Come to that, what percentage of stallions in North American are still being used 10 years later at all?

              The market is already self-selecting for young stallions, and the idea that breeders are reaching back in the gene pool to select lousy producers is fiction. The model is unworkable (for North America at least, I can't comment on how it would work in a country as small as Ireland)."
              This is probably true anywhere and although I have much respect for Tom's breeding program, his Irish studbook has only 16 stallions approved and with 10 of those from his own breeding program he has control over what goes and most of this is an extension of his own program. Poor quality in a stallion is self limiting IMHO, 10 years seems like a long time to wait to figure that out especially if the upfront requirements are not coupled with testing. Possibly the stallions do not breed large numbers of mares and it would take 10 years to have enough offspring to make a judgement. Then again testing does not tell us about the production of the tested stallion and most of the time the stallions that had mediocre results in the test becomes the better breeding producing stallion.

              So what does the testing mean?

              To the stallion owner it could mean a start to a breeding career, a financial and emotional milestone, excitement or disappointment and possibly the end of a dream. Something to start advertising a young stallion with - pictures, video footage etc.

              To a mare owner often the first look at a possible young match for their mare, or confirmation and more information. Part of the puzzle that helps make breeding decisions. When the stallions get older the offspring will tell the more important story and the test results shift to the background.

              To
              www.immunallusa.com
              www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers

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              • #27
                Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                In that case ^ its a great idea and one that more WB registries should adopt for sure to ensure only the best producing stallions are allowed to remain in the gene pool going forward ...
                What about the best producing mares? Anytime a SO will breed to anything that can come up with the Stud Fee in order to maintain a balance sheet, the quality of the stallion becomes moot. Granted, this happens much more outside the WB books.
                Proud scar wearing member of the Bold, Banned and Bitchen clique

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Edgar View Post
                  This is probably true anywhere and although I have much respect for Tom's breeding program, his Irish studbook has only 16 stallions approved and with 10 of those from his own breeding program he has control over what goes and most of this is an extension of his own program. Poor quality in a stallion is self limiting IMHO, 10 years seems like a long time to wait to figure that out especially if the upfront requirements are not coupled with testing. Possibly the stallions do not breed large numbers of mares and it would take 10 years to have enough offspring to make a judgement. Then again testing does not tell us about the production of the tested stallion and most of the time the stallions that had mediocre results in the test becomes the better breeding producing stallion.

                  So what does the testing mean?

                  To the stallion owner it could mean a start to a breeding career, a financial and emotional milestone, excitement or disappointment and possibly the end of a dream. Something to start advertising a young stallion with - pictures, video footage etc.

                  To a mare owner often the first look at a possible young match for their mare, or confirmation and more information. Part of the puzzle that helps make breeding decisions. When the stallions get older the offspring will tell the more important story and the test results shift to the background.

                  To
                  I agree.
                  But I thought Tom's idea was more of a BLUP approach. That after ten years you have a better characterization of the stallion as opposed to a pass and fail. That you find out he can pass on a bit of jump with the dressage or that his kids are hot. Much of what we learn here can be hearsay and this is a way to qualify it. Poor stallions will wean themselves out in any system but having impartial information will help with that process. I posted some results on another thread, for me they say more about the horses general abilities (not final) and his ability to handle the testing process.

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                  • #29
                    http://irish-warmblood.com/Stallions.html

                    Approved Stallions (16) and Recognized Stallions (19) are subjected to the annual evalution of progeny.

                    Why 10 years? It takes 8 - 10 years to produce an international showjumper. The exclusive goal of WSI is to produce CSI horses so a ten year horizon is reasonable. Of course, if all a stallion does not produce progeny that are athletes deemed likely to become CSI horses he will be put on the Watch List and have his approval or recognition rescinded before the ten years are up.
                    Last edited by tom; Nov. 19, 2012, 09:09 AM. Reason: spelling
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