• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Linebreeding

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Linebreeding

    Could someone advice some good articles on it to me ?

    And would this be a linebreeding:

    Damsire of stallion: Prince Thatch xx
    Sire of grand dam of chosen mare: Prince Thatch xx

    What would one expect form this kind of cross ?

    Chosen mare: Sandro Hit - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx
    Last edited by alexandra; Nov. 3, 2012, 04:43 AM. Reason: added pedigree - to clarify a bit
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    2017: Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - Prince Thatch and Finnigan - Sandro Hit - Rouletto

  • #2
    I am sure my answer will get the TB folks up in arms, but if breeding for top of sport in dressage or jumping, I would not line breed on a TB - even one as well regarded as Prince Thatch. My understanding is that he was a wonderful damsire, but he didn't leave stallion sons of note, which to me is an indication they (Hanoverian Verband) didn't want a prominence of his blood in the breeding population.

    Also - with Prince Thatch twice in the pedigree in combination with Sandro Hit, I would wonder what kind of hindleg you would get in the foal.

    Comment


    • #3
      There's an interesting set of articles here with pedigree analysis

      http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/index.html

      the line breeding one is quite fascinating actually
      www.juniperridgeranch.us
      Visit us on Facebook!

      Comment


      • #4
        Molly, the link doesn't work. Can you cut & paste the article?
        www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
        Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
        with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

        Comment


        • #5
          they're pretty big - go to this link

          http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/b...rinciples.html

          and scroll down to the bottom where there are links to, for example, sex-balancing your pedigree

          http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/sex-balance.html
          www.juniperridgeranch.us
          Visit us on Facebook!

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Thank you, I will read that one.

            Interesting thought about the hindleg issue, but I see where it comes from by just looking at the sires listed.
            I know 4 generations of that SH mare's damline. The breeding decision to breed the Rouletto mare to SH was based on the fact, that the hindleg conformation and walk are very good in the damline (including the PT mare in the line.) Both the mare and her fullbrother who was qualified for the BC have correct hindlegs and good walk.
            I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
            www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
            2017: Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - Prince Thatch and Finnigan - Sandro Hit - Rouletto

            Comment


            • #7
              In the case of a mare (and mareline) that is strong in the hind leg area as well as the walk, I think the risk of a weaker hind end and poor walk should be minimized.
              Something else to consider is the neck. A less vertical neck set is a very strong characteristic in the TB gene pool. It is very possible that you may see a reduction in the quality of the neck placement. I seem to remember that SH is not one to use to improve neck so it could be in his lineage as well. Another point is that you may get a more "lively" sensitive type but that is not necessarily a bad thing as many people want this in their riding horse. Just some things to consider...
              Westbrook Farm
              Facebook

              Comment


              • #8
                The cool thing about genetics is that it is random. The bad thing about genetics is that it is random. Every generation is a result of a somewhat random combination of the previous generation. Hence why you can have a famous stallion and his full brothers are only average stallions. I think line breeding is the way to go to consolidate desirable traits consistently. The success of Holstein can be attributed to the C,C and L redundancy along with the mare lines.
                Your foal will have 6 other animals in the 3rd gen that are also contributing. You can get traits hiding in the first gen but usually not the 2nd gen. If you are worried, look at the other offspring of the sire and grand dam for the short comings of Prince Thatch. If they are persistent than you run the risk. If they are not showing up then they probably didn't get passed on. If you think about it at the 3rd generation level, you have 8 horses and 16 full sequences of genes to choose from. Out of all that, only 1 set is passed to your foal. There is a huge amount of randomness to it all, even with good parents. Real inbreeding has to have much more condensed breeding to be consistent.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks for posting this I have had fun reading a number of articles. I thought this was interesting but I probably need to re-read a few times.

                  http://compusire.com/linebreedinbreed.html

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think I already know the answer to this but here goes. I absolutely love Hochadel. I understand that his frozen semen should be available in the US in the Spring. I have a direct Donnerhall daughter that I would want to breed to him. I know they double and triple Donnerhall in Germany successfully. I am afraid that my breeding would be too close? Please help me. :0)
                    It's not true that I had nothing on. I had the radio on.”
                    ? Marilyn Monroe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The danger with doubling and tripling on Donnerhall too close, is you might end up with a pretty heavy type foal.

                      It has been successful, but only when the dam produces mostly lighter foals.
                      www.facebook.com/lusitanos4sale

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Donnerhall was heavier and very talented. I wonder is finer is better, or just in style?

                        But what if you get his talent too...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I would be concerned about putting SH on a TB (mostly) mare. SH tends to make hot, sensitive foals and he doesn't seem to add bone. You need a mare with a good rear end to cross with SH.

                          I have a SH mare that I bred and she has her mom's great rear end (said mare has produced two approved stallions as well), the neck was improved by SH, I think the shoulder was improved, the legs were made longer and the bone is a bit lighter (which was OK) but she is definitely a little more sensitive even though the dam throws a GREAT personality.

                          The mare was a well bred DWB that was about 25% TB and 5% Shagya Arab.
                          Georgia Langsam
                          Team Gauguin, LLC - www.teamgauguin.com
                          Standing Gauguin du Cheval 9054, Prestige II TG, Gauguin's Impression, Gauguin's Brush and Weltfrieden TG

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would be concerned about putting SH on a TB (mostly) mare. SH tends to make hot, sensitive foals and he doesn't seem to add bone. You need a mare with a good rear end to cross with SH.

                            I have a SH mare that I bred and she has her mom's great rear end (said mare has produced two approved stallions as well), the neck was improved by SH, I think the shoulder was improved, the legs were made longer and the bone is a bit lighter (which was OK) but she is definitely a little more sensitive even though the dam throws a GREAT personality.

                            The mare was a well bred DWB that was about 25% TB and 5% Shagya Arab.
                            Georgia Langsam
                            Team Gauguin, LLC - www.teamgauguin.com
                            Standing Gauguin du Cheval 9054, Prestige II TG, Gauguin's Impression, Gauguin's Brush and Weltfrieden TG

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Geogia I am a bit confused:
                              I am not intending to breed SH on a TB mare.

                              The mare I have is SH - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx. As said the the Rouletto mare has loads of substance, is easy as a pie and has a good hindleg plus a good walk in the her damline. Rouletto is a Holstein stallion.

                              Another information people may not know: Prince Thatch did a 300day test at Adelheidsdorf/Celle. He finished third in the rideablity department. Before that he was in training on the local reacetrack and I know that they put inexperienced riders on him as they could be sure they would all come back in a full piece and would have fun.

                              I go back to read the articles and hope that some of the TB breeders that are more familiar with linebreeding will come to give their opinion on linebreeding as such and whether one needs to expect in higher percentages the traits of the doubled genes or not.
                              I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                              www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                              2017: Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - Prince Thatch and Finnigan - Sandro Hit - Rouletto

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Not an expert but since you personally like the individuals and know the damline - why not? I think it is a very interesting combination and would look forward to seeing the result!
                                Watermark Farm
                                Blog
                                Watermark Farm Facebook Fan Page
                                You Tube Channel

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I don't think that's too much - particularly if you know the individuals.

                                  Though Sandro Hit might need a horse with a more active hind-leg (I'm not a dressage person so I can't testify to this), I will say he himself has wonderful conformation, tight legs, and hooves. If you have a line with good mechanics, I wouldn't hesitate to breed to him. And while they may be forward, as a female rider I like this - but that's a preference thing. I also like some cockiness in a horse, SH has that in spades.

                                  I always wanted to look into his gets soundness, as I really do think he can improve some of the issues modern WB's have with dexterity. Have a few dressage-friends, and they find it very frustrating to have a horse who breaks b/w 8-12, when they finally have the training to get past 3rd level. This is the story over & over again. Wouldn't be surprised to see SH the dam-sire of some very nice horses down the road. Not to mention, a horse that stays sound can sire more horses. Sure, might be a # thing, but you can not discount it.

                                  Many stallions out there are not nearly as correct as SH - and you need some of his correctness, particularly with this trend towards extravagant front-ends. Nice to look at, until they blow tendon after tendon throwing those legs around. Just some observations, curious to see how they compare to all the dressage folks opinions.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that SH and his sons are very per potent at passing on that big flashy front end movement?
                                    Westbrook Farm
                                    Facebook

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Not sure if everyone's reading correctly...she's thinking about crossing a Prince Thatch grandson (Don Principe, from another thread?) on a Sandro Hit/Rouletto/Prince Thatch mare. PT is the line breeding, not SH. Personally, I think 3x4 line breeding is the way to do it if you're going to...far enough back to still give influence, and not close enough to worry about inbreeding.
                                      Caitlin
                                      *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                                      http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I realize that but when Goodmorning mentioned the trend toward extravagant front ends, I interpreted it as them thinking that SH does not pass that trait on. Sorry to hijack the thread but I just wanted to mention that my understanding was quite the opposite :-).....
                                        Westbrook Farm
                                        Facebook

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X