• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Linebreeding

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Misty - I wasn't commenting on SH's passing on the front-end movement (I don't feel qualified to comment on that), I was commenting on his conformation being more likely to withstand the rigors of life in the sand box - those tendons & hooves looked fabulous for any horse, and much better than the many, many other stallions I saw in Germany (of any age). Sorry if I wasn't clear.

    Adding my thoughts from a trip to Germany + many conversations with a few dressage friends - but, not a dressage breeder & not familiar with what the particular lines throw. Have seen enough to know I wouldn't throw a nice SH, Jazz, Florencio, Weltmeyer, or Johnson out of my barn, and I like to jump Mix in some TK, xx, or AA blood and I'd be even happier.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
      I am sure my answer will get the TB folks up in arms, but if breeding for top of sport in dressage or jumping, I would not line breed on a TB - even one as well regarded as Prince Thatch. My understanding is that he was a wonderful damsire, but he didn't leave stallion sons of note, which to me is an indication they (Hanoverian Verband) didn't want a prominence of his blood in the breeding population.

      Also - with Prince Thatch twice in the pedigree in combination with Sandro Hit, I would wonder what kind of hindleg you would get in the foal.
      What about the Holstieners? Ladykiller, Cottage Son, Corde (Rantzau and Furioso) and Ramzes (AA) are staples. You would be hard pressed to not line breed. http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10476456
      http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=L...+IV+&x=33&y=18
      http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10566927
      http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=cantano&x=30&y=21

      Comment


      • #23
        SH does reliably pass on a fancy front end. But he is not known for good feet or legs. You need that from the mare.
        Having seen Prince Thatch xx before he passed, I was in awe of his type, more that of a Trak than a TB. In retrospect, he reminded me very much of Secretariat in more ways than one. As a broodmare sire, they both are amazing.
        PT has produced many succesful eventing horses with both athleticsm, bravery and gaits. He has even produced FEI GP winners(Piccolo for one)To add, the character is stellar.
        The hind quarters are better than most any other TB in warmblood breeding to date. And the walks are super.
        I personally like the 3/4 linebreeding. There are so many positive traits in PT that the cross intrigues me. The cross is far enough back that unless you get a throwback( and I would take that considering how much I like PT) the influence will be minmal, but more than just a 1x.
        Our newly licensed stallion, Doctor Wendell MF is Don Principe/Sandro Hit/Don Gregory(here the double Donnerhall)/Hill Hawk XX( double TB). You can see his photos on my FB page or on Hilltopfarminc.com to see what the cross produced. Not too light, but modern.
        Last edited by Marydell; Nov. 5, 2012, 06:22 AM. Reason: more info
        Maryanna Haymon- Marydell Farm - Home to Don Principe & Doctor Wendell MF
        www.marydellfarm.com
        2012 USDF Champion Breeder! 2007, 2011 USEF Champ Breeder
        2009,2010,2011 USDF Res Breeder of the Year!

        Comment


        • #24
          I think this is the OP's plan and I think it might be an awesome cross. Two thumbs up. PT was a very special TB stallion who died way too young. I think that he would have had much more influence on the top side of pedigrees if he had lived longer.

          Originally posted by RedMare01 View Post
          Not sure if everyone's reading correctly...she's thinking about crossing a Prince Thatch grandson (Don Principe, from another thread?) on a Sandro Hit/Rouletto/Prince Thatch mare. PT is the line breeding, not SH. Personally, I think 3x4 line breeding is the way to do it if you're going to...far enough back to still give influence, and not close enough to worry about inbreeding.
          Mary Lou
          http://www.homeagainfarm.com

          https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

          Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

          Comment


          • #25
            Alexandra - I KNOW the horse is a warmblood, but even though it is a warmblood, it has more than 37% TB blood. Just because Prince Thatch did a 100 day test doesn't detract from the fact he was a TB. So I was just saying that the mare has lots of TB and that I would be careful (having seen a lot of SH offspring and having one myself) putting him on so much TB blood.

            Originally posted by alexandra View Post
            Geogia I am a bit confused:
            I am not intending to breed SH on a TB mare.

            The mare I have is SH - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx. As said the the Rouletto mare has loads of substance, is easy as a pie and has a good hindleg plus a good walk in the her damline. Rouletto is a Holstein stallion.

            Another information people may not know: Prince Thatch did a 300day test at Adelheidsdorf/Celle. He finished third in the rideablity department. Before that he was in training on the local reacetrack and I know that they put inexperienced riders on him as they could be sure they would all come back in a full piece and would have fun.

            I go back to read the articles and hope that some of the TB breeders that are more familiar with linebreeding will come to give their opinion on linebreeding as such and whether one needs to expect in higher percentages the traits of the doubled genes or not.
            Georgia Langsam
            Team Gauguin, LLC - www.teamgauguin.com
            Standing Gauguin du Cheval 9054, Prestige II TG, Gauguin's Impression, Gauguin's Brush and Weltfrieden TG

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by alexandra View Post
              Could someone advice some good articles on it to me ?

              And would this be a linebreeding:

              Damsire of stallion: Prince Thatch xx
              Sire of grand dam of chosen mare: Prince Thatch xx

              What would one expect form this kind of cross ?

              Chosen mare: Sandro Hit - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx
              Hi Alexandra,

              I will answer your questions directly. Yes, it is linebreeding. I can't tell you what to expect because I don't know Prince Thatch XX. In Holstein we have books about our improvement sires that I can look to understand how they bred and stood. So when I linebreed, I know that I am increasing the chances that their genetics are coming out in the foal. In an ideal setting, having the linebred horse be in the 3rd, or 4rth gen, and both be in the same generation. You also like to have good sex balance (son of and daughter of) in the same generation. SO in your example, the PT XX is coming through in daughters. This is common as many WB breeders keep the half bred daughters for breeding. Now, if he (meaning Prince Thatch XX) is known for good daughters and you are looking for a breeding stock, then this is good. Calido is a good example of this. Cantus/Coriander/Roman. Cantus is out of a Roman mother, and so its Calido's Dam Baroness VII. Roman was known for making good mothers. Calido happens to be a pre-potent sire.

              At the end of the day, look at pictures of your G.Dam by Prince Thatch XX and pictures of the Dam sire of the Stallion you are looking at. What you see in common between these horses may be the Prince Thatch XX contribution. If that contribution would be welcome on your mare, then all is well.


              Tim
              Last edited by RyTimMick; Dec. 17, 2012, 09:50 AM.
              Sparling Rock Holsteiners
              www.sparlingrock.com

              Comment


              • #27
                Georgia,

                All due respect but Her mare shows 37% blood on paper, and we don't breed paper. The 37% is potential contribution, not actual. Her very response demonstrates this. The Rouletto mare doesn't demonstrate much of this blood in her phenotype, even though her dam is a half TB. You breed with what you get, not what the paper says you should have gotten. In addition, not all TB's are hot so linebreeding to one, doesn't mean your offspring will be hot. For instance, if I had a spicey mare, I would be more concerned about linebreeding to Marlon XX then Ladykiller XX. Both are TB's, but different individuals. Ramzes was an anglo arab, but a great mind. You would actually get good minded offspring when linebreeding to him. So we can not generalize about her mare, or linebreeding to Prince Thatch XX, and breeding a SH/Rouletto/Prince Thatch XX mare is nothing like breeding a TB mare. Furthermore, her mare not only has Ramzes blood but is double Ramiro, who was known for good minds. So without even knowning the mare I would not be concerned about doubling up on Prince Thatch XX assuming his other attributes are not a concern.

                Tim
                Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                www.sparlingrock.com

                Comment


                • #28
                  Alexandra, would you be willing to put the proposed sire's and the dam's pedigree on a database like Sport Horse Show and Breed Database and create a hypothetical foal? http://sporthorse-data.com/ You'll have to register to add a pedigree, but thedatabase doesn't seem to do anything with the registration data. They have some interesting line and inbreeding Statistics that appear for hypomatings. webpedigrees.com also has good statistical information for the horses in their database, but I don't recall if they do hypomatings. With a hypomating, all of the mares, as well as the sires will show up and their percentages can also be calculated.

                  You'll also be adding a bit more TB in the engine room with Sandro Hit, who is tail male to Sacramento Song.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X