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spin off-Breeder's of NA...

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  • #21
    Originally posted by lauriep View Post
    It would be an enormous amount of work to start, but once it was on the radar as the real deal, trainers would come. If you build it (correctly), they will come.
    Build it.
    "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by buschkn View Post
      I'll be totally honest here, this is a bit insulting. I get annoyed when people zip off to Europe to buy horses and don't look here, too, but I went over in spring for the first time and it had nothing to do with fanfare or some kind of propaganda put forth by Europeans.

      I did look here first. I vetted one youngster who did not pass, and looked and looked for a month to find others that were what I am looking for. I found one who looked interesting, in waaaay north western Canada, and a couple in CA who were rather pricey for the quality. A trip to Europe was cheaper, I saw 200 young horses in one week and rode 40! All were well bred and correct, though of course some were perfectly average as expected. Others were superb, and those were the ones I vetted and bought.

      It is a bit naive, or even rude, to suggest that every buyer traveling to Europe is only looking to be able to say they have an import, and have no concept of quality. How many "good breeders" here in NA are there? How many of them imported their breeding horses and use imported semen? So only these few people are able to select quality horses and now nobody else should shop overseas?

      I want people to shop here as much as the next person, but many people won't. With the Euro to dollar still not being overly favorable, and the high costs of import, we are in a position to hopefully offer people a quality product domestically and tap into that maket. But to insult the very buyers you wish to sway is hardly the way to go. I am very much capable of selecting quality horses and knowing when I am getting a price I am comfortable with, and I suspect plenty of other buyers are as well.

      In order to compete, we have to be able to offer a better product, at a better price. Until we have a training system in place, and show costs are made more reasonable, I suspect we will have a hard time doing either. JMHO.
      I don't disagree with you at all! Many years ago I too was on the hunt to find my perfect mare. i spent a year searching all over CA and could not find what I wanted in my price range. My father bought me a plane ticket and paid my hotel and within one week in Germany I saw about 40 mares...and bought my "foundation" mare within my price range (~10K). I was lucky that when I went the dollar as strong, importation fees were cheaper, and I did not have to pay full price for quarantine as I was vet student at the time and quarantined at my school with a student discount I could not afford to do it now!

      But that is why I think it would be great to build "breeding regions" within the US (similar to "show" regions like Wellington and Southern CA). Imagine we had 100 WB breeders (Hano, GOV, Trak, RPSI, etc) within a 6 hour drive of NC and VA!! One could plan a buying trip to the area, similar to what you do when going to Europe, and go from farm to farm.

      I know it is not that simple...you need the YH trainers to also come to this area, you need to continue to support our local show venues, etc. But it is a dream, and one can hope

      Another thing Europe has that we don't (and I don't think ever will) is the support of the government and their registries. For example, the Hannoveraner Verband BUYS a bunch of young colts every year to raise as stallion prospects, there are auctions to place your top youngsters for sale, there are WELL attended mare shows, the Bundeschampionat, the WYH shows...all of these are venues where horses are bought and sold. We don't have that sort of infrastructure in our equine world. So we can model some things off of Europe, but not all.

      We can try to develop breeding regions though. We can also work together to organizing buyers with other breeders. For example, my neighbor also breeds WBs (RPSI). I had someone call me about a foal I had for sale, but I already had a buyer. I told her about a Bugatti foal my neighbor had and she ended up buying it! If we worked together we could make a long distance trip for a potential buyer more appealing. Say a potential buyer calls you about a 4 year old you have for sale you could say to them "yes, I have mine and let me make some calls to see if there are any others in my area so if you are coming maybe you can see 3-4 while here" or "here are the name of some other local farms/ breeders. Give them a call to see if they have anything as well so you can maybe see a few horses during your trip".

      I have a friend that is in the market for an AA 4th level+ dressage horse. She is waiting until our trainer goes to Fl for the winter to start looking. She wants our trainer to test out a bunch of horses while down there so she can go down 1-2 times and check out 6 or so horses on a trip.
      Read about my time at the Hannoveraner Verband Breeders Courses:
      http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2011.html
      http://blumefarm.com/hannoveranercourse2012.html

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by HyperionStudLLC View Post
        Due to our geographical split, there is perhaps only one thing that can bring us all together? The Internet! We need one central site, a database, that we can all depend on.

        This database, can be used to unify all breeders in say, show jumping? (example only) Here we can freely promote our business, have a discussion forum, and offer information. No advertising sales per say, just one place people can go to when they look for others out there doing the same thing? One location prospective breeders can come to find their show jumping stallion's for breeding purposes?

        I have had many a conversions with breeders alike who feel alone and singular. We need to find a way to connect and know who is out there doing what.

        Just a thought.....
        A very good thought. I am on board. One website, right? with one database...which will only be as good as the information given. All breeders thru out this country do need a unified front in ONE place. ;-) Could it have forums like COTH does? How do we get ALL breeders to know about it? Oh dear, the wheels in my head are clicking! ;-) What info would the data base have? Ok....I wanna think on this. Am gonna chat with my webmaster to find out what this kind of thing would entail server wise.....
        Bethe Mounce
        Head Trainer, AmeriCan Romance Equestrian
        https://www.facebook.com/AmericanRomanceEquestrian
        Brentwood CA

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by bluehof View Post

          But that is why I think it would be great to build "breeding regions" within the US (similar to "show" regions like Wellington and Southern CA). Imagine we had 100 WB breeders (Hano, GOV, Trak, RPSI, etc) within a 6 hour drive of NC and VA!! One could plan a buying trip to the area, similar to what you do when going to Europe, and go from farm to farm.
          This, in all likelihood, already exists in the Mid Atlantic region.
          www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
          Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
          with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Bethe Mounce View Post
            A very good thought. I am on board. One website, right? with one database...which will only be as good as the information given.
            Couldn't doing this be as simple as asking warmblood-for-sale.com to add a "breeders directory"?

            I'm curious -- Does something like this exist in Europe? How do buyers going to Europe organize their horse hunting trips?
            www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
            Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
            with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

            Comment


            • #26
              slightly off topic, but might be interesting

              http://dressageradio.horseradionetwo...he-young-ones/

              wrong thread
              Last edited by Marydell; Oct. 11, 2012, 03:50 PM.
              Maryanna Haymon- Marydell Farm - Home to Don Principe & Doctor Wendell MF
              www.marydellfarm.com
              2012 USDF Champion Breeder! 2007, 2011 USEF Champ Breeder
              2009,2010,2011 USDF Res Breeder of the Year!

              Comment


              • #27
                You would be much better off organizing with a pre-established web site for a variety of reasons. Namely, a web site by breeders, for breeders and populated by breeders will do nothing to reach young horse buyers. There is already so much segregation between the two groups, without some serious money spent advertising the site prospect shoppers will never know it even exists. And secondly, despite all pre-conceived notions, web sites are not cheap to build and require a lot of time to maintain. Sure, I bet someone will tell you they can throw it together for a pleasing 4 figure number, but if you really want to set your handful of 5 figure babies apart from the hundreds one can see by simply taking a vacation to europe you are going to need an outstanding web presence.

                And ultimately, lauriep is right. Seeing 60 babies online is great and all, but buyers want to see 60 babies on site. There is typically not room in the budget for multiple trips, and chances of finding Mr. Perfect on the first trip is slim to none when there are only 5 to look at.

                The organized sale is a great idea, though it may take years to become a fixed destination on the circuit calendar. I have previously postulated a Young Horse Training Center on here, where breeders ship their 3 y.o. (or younger if they like) stock out to a centrally located national center where professionals who specialize in the systemized development of young horses get them going and entertain groups of buyers all year long. There's a whole thread on it somewhere, so I'm going to leave this as a bare-bones overview of the idea.
                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                Comment


                • #28
                  just by reading this thread, I found two websites I never knew existed...the exchange hunter jumper one and the warmbloods for sale one. Now I know. There is one central location for stuff...here on COTH. ;-) Just about everyone in America comes here to find out about stuff. I wonder if COTH would be willing to help the breeders and young horse trainers come together on COTH......or perhaps they already do and I know nothing of it. As previously mentioned, we are all so scattered around the country. The big names have huge fancy facilities and I am sure lovely horses and trainers in house. But....what about everyone else who breeds? If you are not a big gun in the business and you want to get your 3 year old backed and "out there," do you rely on where you are located or??? Sending baby off is scary as all get out. Believe me, I do know that. There is Hilltop on the east coast, DG Bar on the west coast and I am sure many many in between. Truly there are young horse trainers just as good as the big guns! In fact, near me, is a breeder who has a freakin' goldmine of horses superbly well bred! She isn't a big gun, but wow....truly lovely babies. She knows her bloodlines and has a very good mare foundation. I would prefer to send a baby to a lesser known name with references provided of course so my expenses stay down. Ok...I must stop this! Got stuff to do, but this thread just winds me up! In a good way! cheers
                  Bethe Mounce
                  Head Trainer, AmeriCan Romance Equestrian
                  https://www.facebook.com/AmericanRomanceEquestrian
                  Brentwood CA

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by dags View Post

                    And ultimately, lauriep is right. Seeing 60 babies online is great and all, but buyers want to see 60 babies on site.
                    How do shoppers that go to Europe see 60 young horses on site? (I honestly don't know). I do know there are plenty of small breeders in Europe. The people who bred Totilas only have 3 or 4 mares. How are they getting their youngsters started? When people shop in Europe, where exactly are they going?

                    Originally posted by dags View Post
                    The organized sale is a great idea, though it may take years to become a fixed destination on the circuit calendar. I have previously postulated a Young Horse Training Center on here, where breeders ship their 3 y.o. (or younger if they like) stock out to a centrally located national center where professionals who specialize in the systemized development of young horses get them going and entertain groups of buyers all year long. There's a whole thread on it somewhere, so I'm going to leave this as a bare-bones overview of the idea.
                    Does anyone know what, precisely, the goal is for the Young Horse symposiums at Hassler Dressage? What is Scott Hassler trying to achieve? Is he trying to address the fact that there's a shortage of truly knowledgeable young horse trainers available for starting the quality horses being bred here in NA? Or is he simply trying to help young horse trainers to promote themselves? Here's the link to the YDHTS:

                    http://www.hasslerdressage.com/ydhts.html
                    www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
                    Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
                    with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      What Scott is trying to to do is offer riders of talented horses a forum to get tips and training in order to be successful in the Young Horse competitions. It's pretty specialized and does not address the on-going need for competent young horse trainers.

                      Finding competent young horse trainers that aren't going to break a breeder's budget for the year is an on-going issue and one that doesn't encourage breeders to keep horses past their 3rd year unless they have unlimited funds. In my mind it's also an issue where some trainers miss the boat as far as getting a super prospect is concerned because they want to play it "safely". In Europe this tends to be much less of an issue because Breeders send their youngsters to young horse raisers and then they're purchased by trainers that see the potential in them (or not).

                      The sad thing is that even if the breeder in the US has the funds to promote their youngster to a successful finish in the young horse classes, the purchase price still doesn't cover the expense incurred while getting there. The reason for that is that "Made in Europe" still garners a higher price than "Made in the US", even if the end product is the same. Ask me how I know....

                      So, before I get off my soap box, let me ask you American buyers what it is that makes the European product so much more desirable? I would really like to know given the same amount of training and show success in a horse raised in the US vs one from Europe.
                      Siegi Belz
                      www.stalleuropa.com
                      2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                      Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Regarding the website idea -- does anyone remember the lengthy discussions on here and the subsequent development of the "North American Sport Horse Breeder's Group" (or a similar name)? The idea was great, and the founder put a fair amount of time into it, but it has since fizzled. As dags mentioned, getting a nice website up and going isn't cheap. And getting a group to agree on things -- like how much to contribute, what things to include, or whether to contribute before they've seen the final product -- all of these things can be a challenge.
                        River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I still buy in Europe because of three reasons:

                          1- foundation
                          2- #'s breed annually produce large numbers of options
                          3- cheap to rear

                          The reasons I founded my business here are such:

                          1- offering NA the same quality Europeans offer be it in smaller numbers
                          2- removing the import costs
                          3- to be an advocate of showing NA that there is another way
                          4- zeroing in on what the market demand is and giving the industry a legitimate option
                          5- advocating change
                          6- showing that the change can be profitable, and is worth supporting
                          7- deciphering the "holes" and putting together realistic options for NA buyers, trainers and breeders
                          8- keeping the program small enough, due to costs and quality control, that it becomes a model for how it can be successful in NA

                          These are a few reasons why.

                          Europeans have strong systems. They have systems that have been in place for a very long time. Some good and some not so good. They are only better because those systems have been developed and refined over many more years than us. You can't condemn folks for wanting to partake or take from it. It's a benchmark that we need in order to evolve so that it fits our geographical divide, our market demand, and our capabilities.

                          With respect to the OP, that idea simply won't work here. What can work is a system put in place that minimizes the divide due to geography, personal gain and personal likes and dislikes. Until NA breeders, owners, buyers, trainers etc find a common ground we will continue to be at the behest of the Europeans.

                          We need champions who will support, develop and maintain the integrity and future of sport and breeding in NA. Not for personal gain or notoriety, but for the benefit if all those who want to make a difference.

                          My two cents......

                          Cheers
                          Hyperion Stud, LLC.
                          Europe's Finest, Made in America
                          WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
                          Standing Elite and Approved Stallions

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            The major divide here is........the dis-connect between the breeder and the showring. Until that divide is narrowed , most breeders in this country will only be foal peddlers.

                            I have connections to the showring. I didn't always and it is very difficult to justify continued breeding when you don't.

                            Breeders need to be real and get rid of the barn blindness. Love your horses for sure , but recognize them for who they are. They aren't all going to be good no matter how many times they are kissed on the nose and fed peppermints.


                            Only breed with very good mares
                            Breed with a mission
                            Recognize them for who they are
                            Get them going properly
                            Be prepared to keep them until 6 yrs old before top riders will even sit on them.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Bayhawk View Post
                              The major divide here is........the dis-connect between the breeder and the showring. Until that divide is narrowed , most breeders in this country will only be foal peddlers.
                              Can you explain what you mean by "connection between breeder and showring"? I honestly don't know what you mean.
                              www.sauconycreeksporthorses.com
                              Dedicated to breeding Friesian Sporthorses
                              with world class pedigrees and sport suitability

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by jdeboer01 View Post
                                How do shoppers that go to Europe see 60 young horses on site? (I honestly don't know). I do know there are plenty of small breeders in Europe. The people who bred Totilas only have 3 or 4 mares. How are they getting their youngsters started? When people shop in Europe, where exactly are they going?
                                Geography. They may not have 60 horses on site, but there are 60 all within a few hours drive of one another. In the US we're talking 10 hour roadtrips one way and/or multiple plane tickets. Add up hotels and food for all that time on the road and you are seriously chipping into your budget before you even begin vetting horses.

                                In short, due diligence is practically impossible here. We rely heavily on videos and photos to determine what we go see. We go see it and maybe get to sit on/view 7 horses in a trip, and that is all we base the decision on. As buschkn noted, sitting on 40 horses and viewing 100+ gives buyers confidence that they are getting the best value for what they have to spend. With a sample pool of 20 or less, buyers will always fear there's something out there that's a better bang for their buck.

                                We are now promoting horses from overseas, a group out of Czech, a group out of Germany whose page I'm working on now, and a Belgium stable is also considering. The price difference between their horses and similar horses that I have listed from the States is astonishing, even with import fees. The difference is so extreme that the idea of buying sight unseen is totally appealing. Even if the horse is a dud for your particular purposes there is still room to make money selling it to someone else in the States.
                                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by jdeboer01 View Post
                                  Can you explain what you mean by "connection between breeder and showring"? I honestly don't know what you mean.
                                  The show world and the breeding world are heavily segregated. One hand really has little idea what the other is doing, namely the show folks who couldn't care less about bloodlines as long as it's already jumping around in style. This gap must be closed if NA breeders want to retain business on this side of the pond.
                                  EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    dags stated ..."Even if the horse is a dud for your particular purposes there is still room to make money selling it to someone else in the States."

                                    I read from your website that you specialize in hunter/jumpers and that's the "type" of horse you import from Europe. So if one of those horses (that are so cheap that you advocate buying them sight unseen) doesn't work out (is a dud) as a hunter/jumper, what exactly would you sell it for? And please don't say dressage.....

                                    As a breeder I always strive for excellence - breeding the best to the best - and I've been successful over the years following that formula. You can definitely find excellent horses in Europe but they're going to have a price tag that supports that excellence. So what does that tell you about the horses you import so cheaply?
                                    Siegi Belz
                                    www.stalleuropa.com
                                    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                                      dags stated ..."Even if the horse is a dud for your particular purposes there is still room to make money selling it to someone else in the States."

                                      I read from your website that you specialize in hunter/jumpers and that's the "type" of horse you import from Europe. So if one of those horses (that are so cheap that you advocate buying them sight unseen) doesn't work out (is a dud) as a hunter/jumper, what exactly would you sell it for? And please don't say dressage.....

                                      As a breeder I always strive for excellence - breeding the best to the best - and I've been successful over the years following that formula. You can definitely find excellent horses in Europe but they're going to have a price tag that supports that excellence. So what does that tell you about the horses you import so cheaply?
                                      Lots of jobs for a horse in HJ land! Just sell it to someone with different goals. The horses we work with are all pretty well confirmed in their jobs before they get to us, it's just a matter of finding the right rider/buyer for them.

                                      I can walk all over the big indoor shows and point out horses that people are paying way too much money for. Most people don't need high octane, or the best of the best, they need something that works for them. They need something with miles, and you just cannot put those on cheaply over here. Of course a horse is of lesser quality when imported at $30K than $250K (and this is the range we work in), but that doesn't mean there won't be a job for it here.
                                      EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        We can all agree that there is a divide between the showring, and the breeding shed. The real question is why.

                                        There a couple of questions that need to be answered before you can answer why, and how to fix it.

                                        1st, who is buying? Well many are students of trainers at the barns they ride and board at. The very first person they go to(although this is probably backwards) is their trainer. Trainers make money selling horses that they already own, can ride in open classes while looking good, and get someone else to pay the bill.

                                        So this leads us to the next question. What motivation do trainers have to contact us breeders(who may also be competitors) and suggest a horse we are selling. Keep in mind, our young stock still need to be started, and prepared. Most riders don't want that, they want horses they can compete tomorrow on. So we know they are looking for horses, under saddle, with some show experience, that is cheap enough for the trainer to make money on. They have to justify their time looking and not giving lessons. So I ask you, if you had a 4-7 year old with show experience that you paid for, are you selling it for a discount? NO So off to Germany they go where young, well prepared horses are a dime a dozen. Their "Not good enough" horses are good enough to jump 1.2-1.3m here. So we are a good market for those horses.

                                        3rd, knowing that WB's are winning just about everything, what do you think is the answer given by most when asked "who knows more about WB's, Europeans or Americans?" I let you all ponder that...

                                        4rth, who pays for the horse training?Horse trainers in this country are considered a cost to Rider trainers, and show barns. They may be traded for services, but a cost none the less. Many don't perceive preparing young horses as either an advantage, or a profit center.

                                        5th, do our riders know what a good horse is? I would say that the vast majority do not. Especially if it is young. Our buyers have no clue what a good horse looks like, unless a trainer or someone higher up in the business tells them. I can't tell you how irritated I get when I hear ," I am looking for a horse that is short coupled with a lot of power." The last three riders I spoke to didn't even understand what short coupled was. Most of them learned to ride on some broken down, showmaster, hunter horse that has been handed down to every rider that showed up in the barn. Now they are looking for a horse that has at least 1.4m capacity. They don't know what that looks like.

                                        6th and lastly, who and where can buyers learn from and trust that isn't selling them something? Who becomes the authority and not the vulture at the same time. I have a lot of respect for large organizations like Iron Spring, Hill Top, etc, but they do not have any interest in selling my horse. They have their own to sell. You might think this would be the same problem in Europe, but it isn't . For one, they don't have the sport of Hunters which in my opinion drives this ignorance. Secondly the concentration is so high, the good ones stand out, and the young riders get to ride the good, inexperienced horses, not the bad horses with lots of experience.

                                        Just some of my own 2 cents.

                                        Tim
                                        Sparling Rock Holsteiners
                                        www.sparlingrock.com

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                                        • #40
                                          Siegi, as a recent purchaser I will try to answer some of your questions. I wanted to buy american, I had the funds to buy a nice prospect, and to travel. My biggest problem was getting response from sellers, and getting information about what was out there. I spent a few hundred hours on the internet, so many sites showed foal pictures on horses currently 3-4 years. There was NO central site I could go to with current info on horses for sale. I had a terrible time getting responses from many breeders. One in particular had a youngster that sounded perfect, the owner (who posts here) was travelling and gave me the contact of the trainer who currently had the horse, I could NOT get in contact with him. Finally after several attempts I received an e-mail with a time to contact, but I never got a response to my call so surprise, I gave up. I live in the west and tried to arrange a trip east, but again communication was so poor I gave that up as well. Exception was Judy Yancey who had an interesting prospect, but I didn't want to head east for one horse. (Wish I had seen Rolling Stone Farm website earlier). Did owners think I wasn't serious? Not good enough? (Amateur with a good young horse trainer and I have bronze and silver medals). I ended up with a youngster from a CA breeder. I wouldn't have looked there (no current info), but I know some horses she bred that are NICE. I had two horses fail PPE first. Very Expensive to travel to see ONE horse. I love the idea of breeders cooperating to help line up several to see.

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