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Breeders of NA speak up!

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Bayhawk
    I think the best benefit is to get the young horses some much needed experience by getting them off the farm.
    This. I've been a supporter of the YHS shows in Wellington as I think it's a great opportunity to get youngsters off the farm.

    However, I think it's more than just getting off the farm. I love that my young stallions are getting to show at Wellington for a very reasonable amount of money and in a more relaxed competition environment. What a great foundation for their participation in the Young Jumpers as 5 year olds! It's such an appropriate introduction to their show careers.

    Comment


    • #42
      To everyone wanting a more affordable avenue to campaign young jumpers, I would suggest you seriously look into Linda Allen's Benchmark program. Gather some like-minded people and start organizing for next year!!

      If this gets to be an established, credible program, it could mean a lot of dollars saved and a lot of business generated for breeders here.

      http://www.thebenchmarkprogram.com/

      I REALLY hope this catches on.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Sakura Hill Farm
        Reece, you know that I do not call you on something often, but I do not think that it is right for you to transpose a very heated debate in which you are an engaged party within the context of a specific registry that is appearing on a different BB to a general discussion on COTH about the pros and cons of the YHS and, more largely, points that NA breeders wish to voice! I expect that very few have any idea about the specifics of the case you are referencing.

        Thanks for granting us the benefit of getting the babies off the farm...yes, that is one of the intended purposes!
        You're right...... I didn't think about the full story not being understood here. I have deleted the post.

        Comment


        • #44
          I took 2 horses I bred to one day of a 2 day show - no stalls - they were trailered in. Cost me $262 and I haven't gotten the bill for riding from the trainer yet. T . W . O classes. Scores in the low 60's at 3rd and PSG, but geez. I have a gorgeous 4yo who is a beautiful, soft, elastic mover. Sheis very rideable. Sire has produced many GP dressage AN jumpers, grandsire has won open jumpers and qualified for the southeast region GAIG at PSG and I was offered less than half my asking price - which has been said to be very fair. She has all her lateral work, started changes, jumps like a deer, is good on trails, has plenty of spark but is easy to ride. When they trainer said that price wouldn't work, the potential buyer just hung up.
          Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
          Now apparently completely invisible!

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Bayhawk View Post
            You're right...... I didn't think about the full story not being understood here. I have deleted the post.

            As I have mine.
            Sakura Hill Farm
            Now on Facebook

            Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Home Again Farm View Post
              I agree with this 100%. Anyone know any dressage, hunter/jumper, 3 day events, etc. that are not set up to make some kind of profit? Sorry, DY, but a $5 surcharge to help cover expenses seems quite reasonable. It is so easy to criticize new efforts. This objection seems pretty hollow to me. And I have absolutely nothing to do with the NAS or the YHS.
              I think everyone fully believes that the organizers should make enough to cover expenses and even make a profit, but what puts off some folks is the concept that some of the funds will go to a specific registry. Obviously that doesn't bother you, but it DOES bother other people, so they have elected to not participate.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by YHS Info View Post
                For the record:
                NAS started the YHS. The YHS and the NAS are now 2 different entities with the same partners and owners. The NAS staff and local volunteers produce all the YHS Shows except for the WEF shows where we only supervise the paperwork and running of the show. To date, neither NAS, YHS nor SCF have made any profits from the shows. The various fees are simply to cover costs of production, judges, handlers, travel expenses, etc…
                We want to take this opportunity to once again thank all of the existing hosts and volunteers, as well as the YHS and NAS staff for their countless hours of hard work to make these shows not only possible but successful, safe and fun!!!
                A big thank you as well to all of our sponsors, especially Spy Coast Farm and Equestrian Sport Productions for their vision and their support of a much needed program in the US.
                Thank you.
                You guys rock! It is so nice that SOMEONE has started these shows for our young horses. I love that I am able to show my young horse for a very reasonable price and have a fantastic experience. Keep it up guys!

                Originally posted by risingstarfarm View Post
                This. I've been a supporter of the YHS shows in Wellington as I think it's a great opportunity to get youngsters off the farm.

                However, I think it's more than just getting off the farm. I love that my young stallions are getting to show at Wellington for a very reasonable amount of money and in a more relaxed competition environment. What a great foundation for their participation in the Young Jumpers as 5 year olds! It's such an appropriate introduction to their show careers.
                I also love being able to show in Wellington. I whispered in my horses ear before he entered the ring "You better behave and act like a gentlemen, Olympic horses have had their hooves on this very sand ". If not for the YHS, I would never be able to afford to show my boy at WEF on a grad school budget!

                Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                I think everyone fully believes that the organizers should make enough to cover expenses and even make a profit, but what puts off some folks is the concept that some of the funds will go to a specific registry. Obviously that doesn't bother you, but it DOES bother other people, so they have elected to not participate.
                I have been a long time involved member of the Arabian Horse Association and now have my boy registered with GOV and have no problem with the orgs putting on the YHS getting a few bucks from me. They are the ones that went through the time, effort, and I am sure extensive planning of these shows. I don't see GOV, AHHA, KWPN, or anyone else trying to help out the young horse breeders/owners. If they did, I would gladly give them $5 as well for helping put on a show that gives the horses experience while being run in a professional manner!! Maybe if other registries offered to help out with the shows, they could split the pennies they make LOL. And like I have already bragged, my boy has the highest in-hand score ever given by the judges at the YHS series, and he is half-arab, and registered with GOV not the NAS, so these judges are EXTREMELY fair and judge the horse for what they are, not the registry they are affiliated with
                Samantha Werner

                There is something about riding down the street on a prancing horse that makes you feel like something, even when you ain't a thing. ~ Will Rogers

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Spectrum View Post
                  I think a website geared towards ONLY young warmbloods, where you could search by breeder, by pedigree, by age, by registry and by price would be fabulous. I know you can find some of those same horses on equine.com or whatever, but who wants to have to constantly filter out a zillion breeds on your results?
                  Originally posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
                  An excellent idea! Perhaps it could usefully begin in the Facebook format where pages for broodmares, breedings and Dutch horses have successfully been started!
                  I started a Facebook Page recently for this very thing. Small steps Those of you on Facebook LIKE it and SHARE

                  https://www.facebook.com/sporthorseprospect
                  Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
                  Website
                  and Facebook page
                  Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
                  Website and Facebook page

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by sfstable View Post
                    I started a Facebook Page recently for this very thing. Small steps Those of you on Facebook LIKE it and SHARE

                    https://www.facebook.com/sporthorseprospect
                    Done.
                    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
                    Breeding & Sales
                    Facebook | YouTube

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Sakura Hill Farm View Post
                      As I have mine.
                      I need to be straightened out once in a while, not often , but once in a while. Good catch Michele. LOL

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        May have already been said-but the cost to house a baby to starting time-- and then the cost to start them-I can think of some young riders that wont look at a young pre-starting age baby because of the cost to house them for 2- 3 years.

                        Also I am giving a second look to breed association fee costs. I am wondering whether I should just cut to the chase--so to speak and just register for the purposes of DNA verification-it would save a bunch on mare and foal inspection fees, etc., that are not really adding to value as i have no illusion I am breeding for a commercial market and if I got something good it wont matter what the "breed" or what the foal or mare scores say as long as the papers indicate a pedigree that says jump and the individual is good. I do believe in DNA based registration papers because unless it is DNA-ed you have no credibility as to the validity of the pedigree. Granted I think I am getting fatigued by the different rules that different breed books have. I would feel bad about not breeding within the confines of a particular book but at this point I think I am too old to care and I dont breed that often to adversely impact anyone or my horses.
                        Last edited by omare; Oct. 8, 2012, 09:07 PM. Reason: edited for clarity regarding papers

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                          It isn't really the point as to whether you or any other YSH supporter registers horses with NAS. The point is that everyone entering those shows is supporting NAS via the $5 surcharge on entry fees - and a lot of folks DO NOT LIKE THAT ASPECT, because it is a competing organization to their registry of choice. Add to it the fact that - as I mentioned - both YSH and NAS are private entities owned/controlled by the same individuals, and it makes even more folks say, "ummmm...." .
                          Really??? You're worried about the NAS making five bucks off you for something THEY created, implemented, and carried out? These people are actually TRYING to do something good for the breeding industry in this country and it is a ridiculous premise that by paying that minuscule fee, you would somehow be a traitor to your "registry of choice". I don't understand why it matters WHO runs the YHS. Can't we be glad the SOMEONE is? And don't they surely deserve compensation for their work? You say by paying the fee, you're supporting the NAS... I wouldn't consider $5 per show a high enough cost to say you're "supporting" the NAS to do much of anything.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                            This is SO true! Most breeders are not riders - at least not young-horse riders. So they end up having to put 10 to 18 months of training on a horse, plus show fees to make it "ready for the average rider to show and WITH a show record". Well, our trainers are not cheap, so in most cases, that adds $5,000 to $24,000 to the cost of the young horse (all depending on what you pay for training). So, a breeder has bred a young horse, raised it for 3 years, then invested $12,000 in training and another $1,000 for some shows, and now a buyer is willing to pay $20,000 for the horse that the breeder has spent $28,000 on. The trainer is going to take $2800 or more right off the top as a commission - so the breeder is better off just PAYING people to take their foals before they are riding age

                            We just don't have the young horse trainers available at reasonable costs here in the US. We have the quality horses, we just don't have a system that allows us to get them trained and shown. The trainers are the only ones that make anything in the current system.
                            Oh, I just have to disagree, but just a little. ;-) I am a young horse trainer in Castro Valley/San Ramon, Ca. I make no $$$ on the young horses. I am also a breeder...well, not so much anymore, my last foal is now 9. ;-) I did all the work myself with my foals....so it cost me only the vet/farrier bills since I have my own farm. Here in California I do not own my own place. My owners are a bit scattered...so I go to where their youngster lives and ride/work with him there in his comfort zone. Remember, this backing of youngsters is DANGEROUS and TIME CONSUMING work if you want it done right so that the new owner is safe. My owners and/or breeders can send their baby to me, pay a reasonable board at a facility where baby is safe and pay me a training fee monthly which I am always willing to negotiate. I am a "no name," meaning I am not DG Bar or some other well known facility so my fees are minimal and negotiable......am I any good at it? Yup. So...we young horse trainers are here for the breeders, we're hard to find, but we're here. I do not invest in the youngsters; meaning I am paid month to month, not when baby sells. I still have to live too. ;-) Truly, we young horse trainers are here!!!!! Like I said I am not Hilltop Farm or Scott Hasslers place but I have tons of references and experience....ok, enough self marketing. lol! Am always happy to help someone out with their babies....
                            Bethe Mounce
                            Head Trainer, AmeriCan Romance Equestrian
                            https://www.facebook.com/AmericanRomanceEquestrian
                            Brentwood CA

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Oh, and if I have enough babies in training, entry fees to the various young horse events are minimized, and often I will waive my riding fee. We, young horse riders and trainers, and breeders.......we are in this together...the end result is an American bred successful horse...either Olympic bound or not. The key is getting the training done right from day 1, otherwise ya wind up with 1000 lbs of horse who knows its own strength. The first 3 years as breeders know is SO crucial to baby's future. The market currently is geared for the amateur, so baby has to be of sound mind. That is up to the breeder to make that right choice of stallion for mare...even though breeding is such a crap shoot. Ok...off my soap box...the young horse thing is such an important piece of the puzzle and I am so determined to see my youngsters brought along safely and slowly so that joints are NOT compromised. The bigger baby is the slower it goes. I train to conserve and preserve those joints...horse has to last and not be pushed...ok Bethe, shut up! ;-) Carry on guys! Cheers
                              Bethe Mounce
                              Head Trainer, AmeriCan Romance Equestrian
                              https://www.facebook.com/AmericanRomanceEquestrian
                              Brentwood CA

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #55
                                A very interesting group of thoughts in this thread I started. All comments are noted and I cannot agree or disagree with people's opinions.

                                Major flaws, big frustrations and hardships have been mentioned. After reading all of the posts, I will say the we all have the same problem!

                                The young horse series currently in place is limited and flawed. The geography is one of our biggest challenge, and the need for instant gratification is our downfall.

                                We can breed the best we can, we are breeding the best we can and we can do better. BUT we cannot continue to improve if we dont do the following:

                                1- breed with great mares to great stallions
                                2- breed with the intention of making our sport greater
                                3-close the geographical division
                                4- stop acting like it's every man/woman for him/herself
                                5- have a unified vision or view on what we need to breed, raise, and train our own
                                6- use the Europeans as a realistic benchmark for success in our own continent
                                7- acknowledge the heart and dedication of all breeders who are trying to offer our market a better choice
                                8- get back to our fundamentals
                                9- have a development system that promotes the young horses' longevity in the sport
                                10- have a better understanding of our own market and it's demands

                                These are only a few of many points. I believe many of us have the best intentions as breeders, yet we lack a uniformity that has enough power to break the barriers in front of us. When we all champion together to create success on common ground, we will make our mark.

                                Let it be said now..... We can be great!
                                Hyperion Stud, LLC.
                                Europe's Finest, Made in America
                                WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
                                Standing Elite and Approved Stallions

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Quixotic View Post
                                  Really??? You're worried about the NAS making five bucks off you for something THEY created, implemented, and carried out? These people are actually TRYING to do something good for the breeding industry in this country and it is a ridiculous premise that by paying that minuscule fee, you would somehow be a traitor to your "registry of choice". I don't understand why it matters WHO runs the YHS. Can't we be glad the SOMEONE is? And don't they surely deserve compensation for their work? You say by paying the fee, you're supporting the NAS... I wouldn't consider $5 per show a high enough cost to say you're "supporting" the NAS to do much of anything.
                                  It isn't the fact that the sponsors of the shows are making $5 "off me" or any other competitor. It is the fact that the money is allocated to a registry owned by the same people who own YHS. If YHS was set up as a separate corporation, and entry checks were being written to YHS and going into the YHS bank account, with NO money being allocated to NAS, folks might feel differently about it.

                                  From what I understand talking to the folks that are resistant, they would feel the same way if Edgar Schutte started a nationwide show series, and allocated funds from the shows to AHS (or started his own private registry). Or if Holly Simensen did it for OHBS/GOV, or Otto Schalter did it for RPSI. And so on.

                                  As mentioned earlier, the concept of these shows is good - I commend the Tolas and Lisa Lourie for their efforts in creating a show series aimed at young horses. But they need to understand there would probably be even MORE support for the shows - maybe even from the other registries themselves - if there was a clear financial and legal delineation between YHS and NAS, and if there was no hint of funds going into the NAS coffers.

                                  At any rate, to get back on track - I will agree the hardest thing for breeders is the cost of getting the youngsters started under saddle and out in the world. One of the reasons I stopped breeding was because I could no longer afford to support broodmares and young horses AND keep a youngster or two in training. IOW, it was more important to me to get the youngsters doing well under saddle than to put more mouths on the ground to feed.

                                  I always shake my heads at breeders who have a bunch of 3-5 y/o youngsters standing around that are either unbacked or have minimal training on them, and the breeder is moaning about not being able to sell anything, but instead of focusing her funds and energies into getting those older youngsters going well under saddle to make them more marketable, she is spending her money to breed more foals.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Obviously that doesn't bother you, but it DOES bother other people, so they have elected to not participate.
                                    Guys, a couple of you are piling on DownYonder, but have you ever heard the saying "don't shoot the messenger"? It's not an issue of whether NAS/YHS/SCF deserves to make $5 or $50 from each entry, the issue is that some people are bothered by the NAS/YHS/SCF connection and therefore avoid these shows.

                                    Think of it another way- say you were vehemently opposed to horse slaughter, would you support a show where $5 of every entry went to support horse slaughter, because it's "only $5"?

                                    Feedback on the recent show was that the facility is inadequate and scattered and the dressage ring was inadequate and the show only had maybe 25-30 horses. I also know some people feel like this show is all about Spy Coast, Sakura, and Cavi, [removed a breeder's quote regarding the YHS/NAS] or spend their money to win some title which is meaningless to everyone except the other participants. The biggest positive I've heard is that the handlers are top notch.

                                    If people just want mileage, we're talking about Florida where you can throw a dart and find a schooling show with multiple rings and nice facilities if you want a cheap outing for your young horse.

                                    I think the YHS concept is a great one, but it needs some tweaking, not denial and defensiveness.

                                    Hyperion- I think your summation is spot on.
                                    Last edited by pinecone; Oct. 9, 2012, 12:04 PM. Reason: removing a quote and reference to a breeder who doesn't support YHS/NAS but also doesn't want to be dragged into the debate.
                                    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      We were posting at the same time. My post now seems redundant but I guess I'll leave it up just the same
                                      "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Cheaper First Miles

                                        Folks keep talking about this point over and over again, as they should given the current show environment. I think it's time for breeders to stop hoping that organizations, registries, show operators and operations bigger than theirs are listening to their needs and will step up to the plate. Clearly they are not

                                        Let's start organizing local schooling type shows on our own. There are examples of folks doing just this and they're proving to work. Heck, many of us have held keurings. Guess what the YHS show is??? Yes, keurings are a giant PITA, but certainly not rocket science. Division of labor and volunteers can easily get the job done. Do we really need ribbons and prize money? I think we can live without in lieu of low-cost first show miles.

                                        Other successful examples... Here in Lexington, Derek Braun just completed the inaugural year of his Split Rock Series schooling show series. Six shows, 1 per month, jump courses .6-1.3m, $30 for the first class and $20 for subsequent classes. Haul in, haul out. During the summer, he was getting almost 200 trips!

                                        And I'm not sure if they still occur in Ocala, but BNTs used to rotate a mid-week "show" at their respective farms so that their horses could get off property and gain much needed exposure and experience at different venues.

                                        The point is... We know what they have in Europe. We know what we need. We can do it here, but WE need to do it and WE need to support each other. But before we gung-ho and start setting up these shows, look at the failures of current programs... we also need to work in collaboration with our professionals to get them involved in the process from word one. They not only have the ability to improve the show (e.g., course design, facilities, entries, endorsement), but they are our customers with significant buying contacts.
                                        www.avenir-farm.com

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by baywithchrome2 View Post

                                          And I'm not sure if they still occur in Ocala, but BNTs used to rotate a mid-week "show" at their respective farms so that their horses could get off property and gain much needed exposure and experience at different venues.
                                          Yep, still do. Others have followed suit!
                                          "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

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