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Thoroughbred Pedigree experts

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  • Thoroughbred Pedigree experts

    Would love to know more about this horses pedigree.


    Also what lines are closely related...similarly bred etc. Who/where would one start to look for a mare of similar lines .
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

  • #2
    Well, that may be a bit tough. He is the only progeny listed on pedigreequery for both the sire and dam. Looked at the dam's dam and she had one other filly. Unfortunately, she only produced two colts.

    So, the mare line pretty much died out.

    Those are some older lines, so while you could find horses with the same names, they will likely be in the 4th and later generations, so not providing a lot of influence.
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    • #3
      Since this is a 1972 model horse, I looked through my 1981 Dr. Birdsall's Bloodlines of Hunters & Jumpers in North America. Ole Brother did not make my edition, but there is a later appendix which I do not own. He could well be in there.

      I checked all the horses in the pedigree to see which ones are listed. Bogue Falaya is not. Tribe is not. Apache is not.

      Alcazar is. He is in the pedigrees of Willow Dancer & Sign the Card. Sign The Card was a Hunter; Willow Dancer is mentioned in the entries for Alcazar but does not appear in the index of horses.

      Priscilla Carter was quite wonderful. She appears in the pedigrees of Adagio, Idle Dice, Mark of Success, Ovation, Rags, Sign The Card, Take The Field and The Crimson Tide. There are both champion hunters and world class jumpers in that list. Her son Isolater, by Blandford, is responsible for most of them.

      Sanoj is not listed.
      Bull Lea, of course, is. He was probably the best American bred TB jumping male line after Man O'War in our history. He has over 2 inches of small type descendants, of whom the best might have been Philco who was linebred on him. Guess I should throw in Rose Leaves, Bull Lea's dam. She was the sire's dam of Wait A Bit through her son, Espino. Espino was consistently a good line in jumping. She was also sire's dam of Cormac through her son Bois des Rose. A better line for eventing than Cormac does/did not exist.

      Galleon Gold is not listed, but Man O'War definitely is. He's got a good six or seven inches of descendants whom Dr. Birdsall considered "champions". As late as the 1990's he was still one of the three most common line in champion hunters and jumpers. The others were Princequillo and Nasrullah, both of whom were 30 or more years younger than MOW.

      Blue Lancer is not listed, but Blue Swords is. He has two with him in their pedigrees. They are Circuit Breaker and You Watch, two hunters. Blue Larkspur was as prolific a line in Dr. Birdsall as Bull Lea. He has 37 horses with him in the pedigree. Not only is he Black Toney, but his dam line is one of the best for jumpers. It's the damline of RAN and Relic and many mares.

      Oconee, Whiskalong and Anna M. Humphrey are not listed.

      Cherry B is not listed. Nice Try is not listed. Brush Off is not listed.

      Endeavour is listed with more than a few descendants. The most telling thing about him for sport, however, is that he was chosen to sire a Winter Rose foal. Winter Rose might have been the second greatest TB broodmare in American history after Bonne Cause, although a good argument could also be made for Finesse, at least for the first generation. Winter Rose was the dam of Miss Budweiser (Circus Rose) and Riviera Wonder. That her owner chose to breed her to Endeavour says a lot, I think.

      Shatterproof is not listed, but The Porter (a tiny little fellow) is in the pedigree of the international jumper, Tuscaloosa.

      On the dam side:

      Patsy O'Sullivan and Ann O'Sullivan are not listed. Reigh Bull is not listed.

      Bull Reigh is in the pedigrees of two international jumpers: White Lightning, as damsire, and as 2nd sire's damsire of Y Hugo.

      There seems to have been a TB breeder named Emerson Woodward in Kentucky who used the prefix Valdina for his foals. A couple of Valdina's are in Dr. Birdsall, but those are not closely related (or related at all, since I didn't check) to Valdina Mary who is not listed.

      Osculator is not listed. Pompey, of course, is, with 18 descendants, including Sandsablaze and Independence. Some More is listed, and that takes you in a whole new direction. Osculator was a full brother to Some Pomp, the dam of Some Chance. Some Chance was the sire of Chance Step and is also the 2nd sire of Kluwall, dam of Touch of Class, and is also in the pedigree of A Fine Romance.

      Oddly enough, Ormondale is not listed, but since Dr. Birdsall only does 4 generation pedigrees, it might be because he is too far back. Ghetto Girl is not listed, nor is Mary Eloise.

      Unbreakable is most famous as the sire of Polynesian, sire of Native Dancer. Unbreakable has many descendants through Polynesian and a couple of other get. Prince Palatine is listed with progeny other than through Unbreakable. This is an excellent line, because it connects to the great Prince Rose sons--Princequillo, Prince Chevalier, and Prince Bio, all of whom are excellent lines to find in sport. Princequillo was one of the top three male lines, per Dr. Birdsall, of AHSA winning h/j in 1995.

      Ganges isn't listed. But I have read "that all Bahrams can jump"; and he is in many, many, many top class European pedigrees. He's a son of Blandford, bred by the Aga Khan, undefeated British Triple Crown winner, and a VERY GOOD sire in Europe. He's made it over into WB breeding. He was a bust on the US mare base and only slightly better on the Argentinian one--at least for racing.

      Gaillonelle is not listed, but Gainsborough, her sire is an icon for sport qualities.

      So that's the pedigree. Like so many TBs it's a soup of horses carrying genes that have been proved in sport and just happened to come together in Ole Brother.
      Last edited by vineyridge; Sep. 26, 2012, 06:15 PM.
      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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      • Original Poster

        Thank you Viney and C'M for that.

        What I do know about him. He was bred in LA and picked off the track by Dressage Master Mykola Pawlenko and eventually ridden in Jumping Grand Prix's by Bill Nunn and Allan Smith

        His name changed and his tattoo was illegible it actually took me until this past year so (20 some odd years ) to track down his Reg name.
        Last edited by Lynnwood; Sep. 26, 2012, 02:45 PM.
        "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


        • #5
          The pic of Pedigree Query of him jumping was great. I can certainly understand why you spent so much time trying to find out his JC name. Wish that there were some closely related relatives out there. Bummer!!
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          • Original Poster

            Originally posted by cyriz's mom View Post
            The pic of Pedigree Query of him jumping was great. I can certainly understand why you spent so much time trying to find out his JC name. Wish that there were some closely related relatives out there. Bummer!!
            He was a great and I was blessed to have gotten to learn from him. Now that I know more about who he was on paper I was hopeful there might be away to find a mare or others of his family.
            "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


            • #7
              In the APR, Patsy O'Sullivan had a full sister to Ole Brother, but she has no produce. Ann O'Sullivan had three fillies, and Patsy O'Sullivan and Ann Del were the only ones with produce. Ann Del had only one daughter, and she isn't shown with produce. This is a female family that seems to have produced mostly males. Ganges had daughters, but the female line seems to be dead from her.

              Reigh's Bull on PQ has mostly female offspring. I'm in the process of checking the old APR to see which, if any, of them still live on.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire