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Do they do DNA tests to make sure the sire & dam are actually the sire and dam?

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  • Do they do DNA tests to make sure the sire & dam are actually the sire and dam?

    This is something I have always wondered. How does one really know... I have heard stories of mix-ups, both innocent and not so innocent.

    I have a friend who purchased a foal, and found out the sire and dam were not who they were represented to be...
    What would be the benefit of this, and are there safeguards in place at the inspection and keuring levels?

    Has anyone else ever questioned this?
    ~ Bill Rube ~
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  • #2
    well, if the horse is papered, at least for my registries mane hair is pulled from dam and foal at time of branding, so it is kind of hard to get mixed up. Dont know about other registries.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by SilverBalls View Post
      are there safeguards in place at the inspection and keuring levels?
      I don't know about the other societies, but the German Oldenburg Verband does a DNA test when the foal is presented for inspection.

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      • #4
        I know that they do confirm parentage by DNA for Arabs, Andalusians, and AWS. It is pretty inexpensive to do, and IMO irresponsible for a registry to not require it. ILAHA (Andy registry) also requires microchipping.

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        • #5
          The Jockey Club does not even complete a registration application until the DNA results are in and posted, plus they do a "parenet verification" on every single foal and it is stamped on the papers before they are sent out. I know a lot of WB registries have started DNA typing dam, sire and foals now..but they did not a few years back.

          When someone is shipping semen out from a farm with many stallions mix ups do happen and it is more like for a stallion to be wrong..kind of hard to have the wrong mare unless someone is fudging papers on purpose.

          I know several years ago when I first started reg my palomino foals, the JC gave me a very hard time reg my FIRST palomino foal. They came back with the mare does not match the foal???? What? I was there deliverying the foal with several witnesses including my Vet and thank god someone was videoing the birth on my first palomino foal. Once I informed the JC I was tired of their game due to the foal being a palomino and them claiming the foal was not out of the mare and that I had a video and several witnesses to the fact that the foal came out of X mare, plus my Vet there... I also then informed my attorney would have to take over and sue the JC that this was crazy and I was not submitting a 3rd dose of blood (this was before they went to DNA in 2000)...magicly the papers were overnighted to me!!! Never had a problem again with registering a palomino foal or any other foal again...I guess they were hoping I would give up and go away and NOT reg my palomino foal with them. Since then it has been no problem reg the white ones, palomino, cremello, buckskin and frame overo ones.
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          • #6
            The ATA requires DNA on the dam/sire/foal prior to registration. If the dam or the sire's DNA are not on file for some strange reason (first foal in eons perhaps) you have to get that DNA before you can even start registration on the foal.
            Emerald Acres standing the ATA, Trakehner Verband, sBs, RPSI, and ISR/OLD NA Approved Stallion, Tatendrang. Visit us at our Facebook Farm Page as well!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Hampton Bay View Post
              I know that they do confirm parentage by DNA for Arabs, Andalusians, and AWS. It is pretty inexpensive to do, and IMO irresponsible for a registry to not require it. ILAHA (Andy registry) also requires microchipping.
              Don't know if things have changed since 2005, but as of Spring of that year, AWS was not confirming parentage or even requiring DNA sample for registration.

              I don't think ISR/OLD. N.A. does either.

              I don't know about any others.
              http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

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              • #8
                The AHS requires DNA confirmation. That is the only registry I can attest to.
                "Her life was okay. Sometimes she wished she were sleeping with the right man instead of with her dog, but she never felt she was sleeping with the wrong dog."



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                • #9
                  Originally posted by SilverBalls View Post
                  This is something I have always wondered. How does one really know... I have heard stories of mix-ups, both innocent and not so innocent.

                  I have a friend who purchased a foal, and found out the sire and dam were not who they were represented to be...
                  What would be the benefit of this, and are there safeguards in place at the inspection and keuring levels?

                  Has anyone else ever questioned this?
                  I have questioned this before.

                  Unless the mare & stallion are DNA typed for breeding within the registries that do that, who also DNA type the foal for registration, you cannot REALLY know.

                  The reason I think someone would misrepresent the foal's parentage would be:
                  Mare did not produce well
                  Stallion did not produce well
                  The resulting offspring's value would be increased by representing it with "better" bloodlines

                  The Hanoverians / AHS require approval and DNA from all mares and stallions before registering a DNA typed foal.

                  How to safeguard this? Purchase foals only from registries that do this so you have DNA proof of parentage, not just bloodlines. Copy of stallion service certificate and mare bred certificate from the vet?

                  And, buy from reputible breeders with DNA'ed stock. They also would have a stallion service certificate and vet insemination records. I don't think good breeders make these kinds of mistakes very often or intentially.

                  There are breeders out there I have heard of that sound like used car salesman and will tell a prospective buyer whatever they want to hear if it will make a sale.

                  And some people now AI themselves without vet approval. So who is monitoring what semen is going into who without an outside person noting what mare and markings were bred?

                  Sorry for your friend. I imagine it is a nice horse. And a nice horse IS a nice horse. But it would really really make me upset to be misrepresented.

                  Did this horse have pedigree papers from a registry? And which one. Curious for more information and how she found out.

                  Lastly, I have heard of others suspecting this happening with horses that have no verifiable pedigree.
                  Robin Stewart
                  www.woodsendfarm.com

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                  • #10
                    I might also mention that not only does the AHS require DNA tests for sire, mare and foal, they have also caught a couple of "oops" l...ike mare bred to stallion #1, declared open, so bred to a second stallion and confirmed pregnant. Everyone thinks the foal is by stallion number 2, until the DNA comes back. Nope...it was stallion number 1.
                    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Justbay1 View Post
                      I have questioned this before.

                      Unless the mare & stallion are DNA typed for breeding within the registries that do that, who also DNA type the foal for registration, you cannot REALLY know.

                      The reason I think someone would misrepresent the foal's parentage would be:
                      Mare did not produce well
                      Stallion did not produce well
                      The resulting offspring's value would be increased by representing it with "better" bloodlines

                      The Hanoverians / AHS require approval and DNA from all mares and stallions before registering a DNA typed foal.

                      How to safeguard this? Purchase foals only from registries that do this so you have DNA proof of parentage, not just bloodlines. Copy of stallion service certificate and mare bred certificate from the vet?

                      And, buy from reputible breeders with DNA'ed stock. They also would have a stallion service certificate and vet insemination records. I don't think good breeders make these kinds of mistakes very often or intentially.

                      There are breeders out there I have heard of that sound like used car salesman and will tell a prospective buyer whatever they want to hear if it will make a sale.

                      And some people now AI themselves without vet approval. So who is monitoring what semen is going into who without an outside person noting what mare and markings were bred?

                      Sorry for your friend. I imagine it is a nice horse. And a nice horse IS a nice horse. But it would really really make me upset to be misrepresented.

                      Did this horse have pedigree papers from a registry? And which one. Curious for more information and how she found out.

                      Lastly, I have heard of others suspecting this happening with horses that have no verifiable pedigree.
                      The horse was purchased as a 2 year old, it is now 4. There was no inspection whatsoever as the breeder said they didn't inspect any that year????
                      Someone said, "are you sure so and so is the father"? And so the saga began... Now they want ALL their money back, plus the costs over the past 2 years.
                      It does make you wonder... the stallion has a VERY HIGH stud fee in Europe. The poor dear paid out the ass for the 2 year old...

                      I also think the red flag went up because this breeder has inspected everything every other year... I think the breeder also cited some personal health reasons as another reason for no inspection.
                      ~ Bill Rube ~
                      http://www.bydesignfarm.com
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                      • #12
                        You need DNA for ISR/OLDNA if your foal is by a foreign stallion so frozen semen, also if the foal is not presented with the mare at its side at the time of inspection, yearlings and two year olds also require DNA parental verification.
                        http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill

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                        • #13
                          SB, I would imagine if the breeder usually inspected the foals, even if this one was not, then the famous european stallion and the mare's DNA was on file with the registries they are approved with.

                          The 4 yo could be DNA typed and sent in and compared/matched?

                          I really don't know how this works.
                          Robin Stewart
                          www.woodsendfarm.com

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ahf View Post
                            I might also mention that not only does the AHS require DNA tests for sire, mare and foal, they have also caught a couple of "oops" l...ike mare bred to stallion #1, declared open, so bred to a second stallion and confirmed pregnant. Everyone thinks the foal is by stallion number 2, until the DNA comes back. Nope...it was stallion number 1.
                            I thought AHS checked as well. Glad to hear they do. I always wondered if that was done and it should.
                            Robin Stewart
                            www.woodsendfarm.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I can only go on the QH and Arab registries. The Arab registry requires it for PB arabs (they don't to register for part-bred). The QH registry does for any foals that will be breeding, so they don't require it on geldings. But if you go to breed a stud or mare, that has to be on file.
                              "Sadly, some people's greatest skill, is being an idiot". (facebook profile pic I saw).

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                              • #16
                                AWS *does* require for the breeding book/approveal. Not for just recording purposes.
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                                • #17
                                  You beat me to it, lol! I was going to say the same thing about AWS requiring DNA for mares and stallions to be Approved for Breeding.

                                  The Friesian Sporthorse Association (FSA) also requires DNA for mares and stallions Approved for Breeding.

                                  DNA testing is so affordable now, I do it on my foals even if they will never be used for breeding.
                                  River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

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                                  • #18
                                    The AWR requires DNA of EVERY horse entered into their studbook
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                                    • #19
                                      I think it's pretty safe to say that if the horse is registered there shouldn't be any surprises.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by talloaks View Post
                                        You need DNA for ISR/OLDNA if your foal is by a foreign stallion so frozen semen, also if the foal is not presented with the mare at its side at the time of inspection, yearlings and two year olds also require DNA parental verification.

                                        But they don't just automatically do all of them? I thought that they pulled hair from all of the foals at every inspection.
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