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Breeding TB Mare for nice WB baby

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  • Breeding TB Mare for nice WB baby

    Hey guys I am thinking about breeding my 99' TB mare - she is maiden. It wouldn't be until next April or May tho. She is by Waterway Drive out of Madrama by Master Willie.

    She had a very successful career in hunters and over the last two years I started doing dressage with her. I think she is doing very well. My trainer told me I should breed her because she is a quality mare and they also breed at least 4-5 mares a year. Her suggestion is Ferro because I would be breeding for a dressage horse.. Thoughts on stallions??

    Here are a couple pictures... Thanks in advance for any suggestions - I am not 100% if I will do it or just buy a young horse but I am just checking out my options - Also would you do fresh or frozen semen??

    http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...ert19/Mare.jpg

    http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...9/100_0489.jpg

    http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...9/100_0488.jpg

    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/waterdance

    Thanks Again

  • #2
    It's probably going to be cheaper in the long run to BUY a dressage bred foal than to try to produce one out of your hunter mare. You can breed good jump to good jump and be pretty certain you'll get a good jump but producing a mover for dressage is just much more of a gamble.

    The other thing to consider if your goals are to sell, is that dressage people (more than hunters) are much more critical of a TB dam. They'd much rather see a Warmblood dam, with the TB blood coming from the sire side.... Not saying it's always correct but that's what you'll deal with trying to sell.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't do it - Your post doesn't really give enough info about the mare for anyone to make that decision definitively. She looks like a pretty mare although the pictures are not ideal (far away and funny angles). You don't say what level she's been working at in dressage or give videos or the types of scores she's getting.....

    Just evaluate your reasons and sit down with a repo-vet to calculate the per-cycle cost plus the cost of all the pregnancy care, foaling costs, etc. Then look at your mare with an unbiased eye and decide if you'd be happy with a clone of her. Also pick a stallion who has crossed well on TB mares in the past.

    Weigh the pros and cons of it. I bred my TB-mare line warmblood this year and I'm hoping it all goes well for me, but I know I could have bought a young prospect for what it's going to cost me by the time the foals are on the ground. The pedigree won't make buyers come running but I know picked a stallion knowing how well he's crossed on TB-type mares, I what I've got in a mare, what her family (mother and sisters) have produced, and I know I'll be thrilled if I get another one just like her!

    BTW - in general, it's accepted that fresh semen has better odds than frozen.
    The rebel in the grey shirt

    Comment


    • #3
      I can't really tell anything from your pics & I'm no expert anyway, but more info is needed. What type of temperament does your mare have? Do you like a hotter or quieter horse? What are your goals for this foal, upper level, lower level?
      "It's never too late to be what you might have been." George Eliot

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thanks - I have been thinking about going the buying route anyways because I would much rather get a 3 year old and know what they are all about and the size, gaits, etc and everything... But was just weighing my options and looking at stallion options out there.

        A little about my mare... I have not shown her at all but has been schooled thru all 3rd level movements... And does well including very clean flying changes. I don't plan on showing her at this point dont even know if I got another horse or bred if I would show...I showed a lot on the hunter circuit and at this point just want a break... I would keep whatever I got and wouldn't care if it was an exact replica of my mare... She has a super brain and is forward but not hot at all or looking or spooky... most people don't believe she is full TB. So my number one thing would be a good brain and because I am getting older I would just prefer if the horse was not hot or difficult.

        She has good gaits my old trainer was a judge and said her gaits could probably get scores of 7 or 8 depending on the ride so they are decent and pure. She doesn't have the natural suspension that you see in some horses as she was bred to be a hunter but they are very big and floaty.

        I agree with the comments about TB in dressage as dressage people seem to be more about the breed then anything else where in hunter jumpers a good horse is a good horse even if its a donkey.

        Sorry I agree the pics are not super. But just wanted to put feelers out if there were some good stallions that I should consider if I go down that path. But as it was said in the early post the cost and time and the crap shoot I am leaning towards just buying.

        Comment


        • #5
          Because I just got off the phone with a friend, who has an 14.3h Arab getting ready to debut at 4th level - at the age of 17! - who beats the fancy imports when he goes out...(this is his 2nd career, think he started dressage ~13/14)

          Soundness is important. If your mare has shown in the hunters, to the point where it burnt you out (sounds like it!), and is sound for her new career, it means something. The life of a show-hunter, particularly a TB who might need more prep than another, isn't easy on the legs.

          There will probably be many detractors suggesting you buy something already on the ground. And sure, we have some quality horses in the US, but, the ones out of proven mare lines, or with at least 3rd level competition experience (which is still a 'lower level' but in the US, land of the 'weekend warrior' - I'll work with it), are going to cost a lot more than those the average WB mare, who is probably of much less quality than your mare, even being an unproven broodmare.

          Furthermore, a thoroughbred mare who produces nicely is a wonderful thing, particularly if you like a nice TB. Unfortunately, unless you knew her dam, and siblings, there's a bit less predictability in the phenotype.

          I'd breed 'type-to-type' with re:conformation, who will improve on your mare's weaknesses, add suspension, and is known for ridability. Since you are riding with a dressage trainer, I'd get feedback on how your horse holds it's tension - which part of that dressage training scale is your mare's weakest- many interesting threads discussing elasticity v. suspension v. flashy trot v. gait purity, etc.

          Have fun, whatever you decide to do

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by goodmorning View Post
            Because I just got off the phone with a friend, who has an 14.3h Arab getting ready to debut at 4th level - at the age of 17! - who beats the fancy imports when he goes out...(this is his 2nd career, think he started dressage ~13/14)

            Soundness is important. If your mare has shown in the hunters, to the point where it burnt you out (sounds like it!), and is sound for her new career, it means something. The life of a show-hunter, particularly a TB who might need more prep than another, isn't easy on the legs.

            There will probably be many detractors suggesting you buy something already on the ground. And sure, we have some quality horses in the US, but, the ones out of proven mare lines, or with at least 3rd level competition experience (which is still a 'lower level' but in the US, land of the 'weekend warrior' - I'll work with it), are going to cost a lot more than those the average WB mare, who is probably of much less quality than your mare, even being an unproven broodmare.

            Furthermore, a thoroughbred mare who produces nicely is a wonderful thing, particularly if you like a nice TB. Unfortunately, unless you knew her dam, and siblings, there's a bit less predictability in the phenotype.

            I'd breed 'type-to-type' with re:conformation, who will improve on your mare's weaknesses, add suspension, and is known for ridability. Since you are riding with a dressage trainer, I'd get feedback on how your horse holds it's tension - which part of that dressage training scale is your mare's weakest- many interesting threads discussing elasticity v. suspension v. flashy trot v. gait purity, etc.

            Have fun, whatever you decide to do
            Wow this makes me smile... Thanks...

            Yes she is very sound - showed at 3'6" hunters for a lot of years and is solid as they come. Lucky she is low prep and just has a heart of gold. Also I believe she was shown in the international hunters futurity prior to me buying her as a 4 year old!

            Loved the story about the Arab thats so awesome.. Especially because my mare is on her second career!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JWB View Post
              It's probably going to be cheaper in the long run to BUY a dressage bred foal than to try to produce one out of your hunter mare. You can breed good jump to good jump and be pretty certain you'll get a good jump but producing a mover for dressage is just much more of a gamble.

              The other thing to consider if your goals are to sell, is that dressage people (more than hunters) are much more critical of a TB dam. They'd much rather see a Warmblood dam, with the TB blood coming from the sire side.... Not saying it's always correct but that's what you'll deal with trying to sell.

              I'm not saying you shouldn't do it - Your post doesn't really give enough info about the mare for anyone to make that decision definitively. She looks like a pretty mare although the pictures are not ideal (far away and funny angles). You don't say what level she's been working at in dressage or give videos or the types of scores she's getting.....

              Just evaluate your reasons and sit down with a repo-vet to calculate the per-cycle cost plus the cost of all the pregnancy care, foaling costs, etc. Then look at your mare with an unbiased eye and decide if you'd be happy with a clone of her. Also pick a stallion who has crossed well on TB mares in the past.

              Weigh the pros and cons of it. I bred my TB-mare line warmblood this year and I'm hoping it all goes well for me, but I know I could have bought a young prospect for what it's going to cost me by the time the foals are on the ground. The pedigree won't make buyers come running but I know picked a stallion knowing how well he's crossed on TB-type mares, I what I've got in a mare, what her family (mother and sisters) have produced, and I know I'll be thrilled if I get another one just like her!

              BTW - in general, it's accepted that fresh semen has better odds than frozen.
              This is good advice

              Based on the information provided so far. It probably would be a big gamble to try and get a dressage prospect with this mare. So if you are looking to go the dressage route I would look at purchasing a young one that you like.

              If you would like to breed the mare, I would probably look to try and produce a hunter type with her.

              Good luck
              Richard, Approved Black KWPN Stallion
              Website
              and Facebook page
              Oh Kaptain Underpants SFS, Approved BRp pony stallion
              Website and Facebook page

              Comment


              • #8
                Honestly any sound well conformed horse can be trained in dressage. What really matters is a willing temperment and a horse that will work hard with you. Sure super gaits are cool, but you dont need them.the dressage training if done correctly will create fab gaits.

                So if you like your mare breed her! There are plenty of nice tb crosses out there! I have one and she is fab!

                I suggest coming up with a list of wants then take some decent pics and come back and you will get great suggestions!

                Fwiw i bred my mare this year she is 13 and a maiden. She is bred to a stallion that i heard of here on coth : )

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by mbm View Post
                  Honestly any sound well conformed horse can be trained in dressage. What really matters is a willing temperment and a horse that will work hard with you. Sure super gaits are cool, but you dont need them.the dressage training if done correctly will create fab gaits.

                  So if you like your mare breed her! There are plenty of nice tb crosses out there! I have one and she is fab!

                  I suggest coming up with a list of wants then take some decent pics and come back and you will get great suggestions!

                  Fwiw i bred my mare this year she is 13 and a maiden. She is bred to a stallion that i heard of here on coth : )
                  Thats awesome - did you use frozen or fresh? Did your mare take on the first time? Thanks for the info.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is my half TB

                    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...3&l=95b741f3b4

                    this is who i bred her to:

                    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...2310739&type=3

                    fresh cooled, took her to my vet for breeding, and she was a good girl and took first try - dont want to jinx so knocking on wood like mad.... we do a 30 day heart beat check on the 12th.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      She seems like a nice mare with many good things going for her. If you are happy with getting something really similar to her, then I would go for it. You might get something super fancy...or not, but if you breed to the right stallion you should end up with something sane, well put together and fun to ride. If that is your breeding goal then you aren't likely to be disappointed. If you are striving to breed a very competitive, big moving superstar then I would likely not try with a mare that doesn't have those same qualities.

                      Wolkentanz II really crosses well with TB mares. Would avoid Ferro if you want to preserve your mare's very quiet, easy temperament.
                      www.svhanoverians.com

                      "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'd pick a stallion who could produce a nice mover but also has a nice jump so that if the dressage thing doesn't work out there is still a strong possibility of a career over fences. Briar can do both but his fresh semen is 3k! (Of course if you are considering $1400 per dose frozen, you're probably comfortable with the price and this does have an LFG, which frozen generally does not) I also hear his foals can be sensitive... Ferro also has sensitive babies. Personally I also would not put $1400 per dose frozen semen into an older maiden mare either, unless I had a super confident repro vet who did ONLY that.

                        Edelweiss de Bonce jumps to mind as a stallion who can produce for dressage and jump with a great mind, or Olivier might work for you too. Both are also here in the US, so available fresh.
                        Last edited by JWB; Jul. 8, 2012, 08:09 AM. Reason: Additional information re: frozen semen prices
                        The rebel in the grey shirt

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