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Color experts...Knabstrupper X TB question

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  • Color experts...Knabstrupper X TB question

    I have a friend who saw/rode Knabstruppers when she was in Europe last winter and fell maddly in love with them. She has bought several of our homebred painted TB youngsters and is familiar with the sabino/overo color. She was asking me if a solid TB mare who was 100% overo producer would be more likely to produce an appaloosa colored foal when bred to a Knabstrupper stallion. I told her I would ask the experts here. So...does a mare who carries the sabino gene stand a better chance of producing an app marked foal?? Are there other genes/things to consider. Thanks.
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

  • #2
    The spotting gene of the Knabstrupper/Appaloosa is completely different from the pinto/paint gene. So, I don't think there'd be any correlation. However, there is research (google "appaloosa project") that indicates that the Knabstrupper/Appaloosa spotting gene can be suppressed by the black gene unless there are other factors at play.

    That said, this solid TB mare that produced 100% overo - I assume she was bred to overo stallions each time. How many times did she produce overo offspring?

    There are no homozygous overo stallions (a homozygous overo would die of lethal white syndrome). So every time she was bred to an overo stallion, she'd have a 50% chance of producing an overo foal. That doesn't change no matter what her genes are.

    But if those overo foals she produced were LOUD overos, then she maybe does not have a color suppressing gene. Don't have any idea whether that would allow her to produce loud Knabstrupper/Appaloosa foals, as I don't think anyone has done the research to determine with they are related.

    Also, remember that if she breeds to a non-homozygous Knabstrupper, there is still only a 50/50 shot that she will get color. Breeding to a homozygous Knabstrupper will guarantee that the color gene is passed to the foal and, all other things being equal, then she sounds like she might be a good candidate in that case to get a loud colored foal.
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    • #3
      Gads, I read over my post above and it sounded totally confusing. So, let me start over.

      Any solid mare bred to a Knabstrupper stallion that is not homozygous for the spotting gene has only a 50/50 chance of getting the gene. If bred to a homozygous Knabstrupper stallion (a few spot), then there is a 100% chance that the gene will be passed to the foal.

      If the foal gets the spotting gene, other factors come into play that will determine how loudly that spotting gene is expressed.

      In general, chestnut based foals will express the gene more loudly than will black or bay based foals.

      There is credible research that indicates that the black gene tends to suppress the spotting gene unless the mare has other factors at play that are not yet well understood. Bay is a black gene with agouti, so is included in this category.

      If this bay mare has always produced LOUDLY COLORED BAY OR BLACK BASED overo foals (not chestnut) then it is possible that she does not have the suppressive gene - but not guarantees since there have been no studies to determine the correlation of pinto gene expression with that of spotting gene expression.

      Hope that makes sense.
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      • #4
        Need a Homozygous stallion!

        Originally posted by Sonesta View Post
        The spotting gene of the Knabstrupper/Appaloosa is completely different from the pinto/paint gene. So, I don't think there'd be any correlation. However, there is research (google "appaloosa project") that indicates that the Knabstrupper/Appaloosa spotting gene can be suppressed by the black gene unless there are other factors at play.

        That said, this solid TB mare that produced 100% overo - I assume she was bred to overo stallions each time. How many times did she produce overo offspring?

        There are no homozygous overo stallions (a homozygous overo would die of lethal white syndrome). So every time she was bred to an overo stallion, she'd have a 50% chance of producing an overo foal. That doesn't change no matter what her genes are.

        But if those overo foals she produced were LOUD overos, then she maybe does not have a color suppressing gene. Don't have any idea whether that would allow her to produce loud Knabstrupper/Appaloosa foals, as I don't think anyone has done the research to determine with they are related.

        Also, remember that if she breeds to a non-homozygous Knabstrupper, there is still only a 50/50 shot that she will get color. Breeding to a homozygous Knabstrupper will guarantee that the color gene is passed to the foal and, all other things being equal, then she sounds like she might be a good candidate in that case to get a loud colored foal.
        THIS!

        And, the site to look at is here:

        http://www.appaloosaproject.info/

        If a coat pattern/characteristics are the desired result, one would need to breed a SOLID TB mare to a Knabstrupper stallion HOMOZYGOUS for the LP gene (main gene responsible for coat patterns and/or characteristics)...

        Inheritence of the LP gene follows simple Mendelian genetics...

        However, there are MANY "pattern" modifying genes that either enhance or inhibit the final appearence of an LP produced coat pattern...

        Some "pinto/paint" genes are believed to play a role as PATN genes and, therefore, impact the appearence of a horse's LP produced coat pattern...

        A generalization is that some of those "pinto/paint" genes may enhance the LP produced coat pattern... i.e., one may see "more" white in the LP coat pattern... Like, perhaps a larger blanket with spots, or similar...

        With regard to LP genetics, and all other "conditions" being equal, one will see "more" of an LP coat pattern with the following (i.e., larger blanket, larger leopard, etc...):

        Male gender > Female gender

        Chestnut base coat (ee) > Black base coat (Ee) > Black base coat (EE)

        If you consider the presence of the Agouti modifier added to base coat color, then a Bay coat color would follow a Chestnut coat color in the above sequence...

        So, depending on what discipline one is hoping for the resulting foal, there are a handful of Knabstupper stallions here in the US to be considered, plus there are certainly those others available via frozen from abroad... Sorry, don't know what's in Canada...

        In the US the two HOMOZYOUS Knabstrupper stallions that I can think of are:

        Halifax Middelsom (http://www.knabstruppers4usa.com/ and http://www.knabstruppers4usa.com/Halifax_Middelsom.php)

        Pegasus Vom Niehaus-Hof (http://www.baroque-n-dreams.com/Pegasus.htm)

        And again, there are certainly other Knabstrupper stallions in the US, but these are the only two I can think of that are homozygous (again, only important if the desire for a coat pattern is a crucial requirement...)

        Hopefully, others will chime in here...

        For more information on the breed there are several sites on the internet, but the parent registry is the KNN in Denmark:

        http://www.knabstrupperforeningen.dk/

        And, don't worry, there is an English translation...

        Good Luck!
        Gleann Oighrig LLC
        Showing, Sales, Breeding, and Boarding
        Manakin-Sabot, Virginia

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Thanks Sonesta and mitma. The first mare of mine that she is interested in is a big bay mare, small star, 4 white pasterns. She was bred to our late, overo TB stallion, Puchi's Rambo and produced two LOUD overo fillies - one chestnut and white and the other bay and white. The third colt was a dark/seal brown colt -not as loud, but "paint" eligible by Jagged Illusion a loud overo son of Puchi's Rambo. So 3 for 3 by overo TB's. I am not an App/Knap. expert. I do understand the homozygous concept but...without looking at the stallion links...can a leopard be hz and will it always be leopard or can blanket show up too out of the same stud. In other words...it the pattern HZ or just the "spotting"?? The other mare I "might" consider leasing - not selling - is the loud chest/white filly out of the above mare. I sold the bay white filly to a California breeder last fall and plan to keep the chest/white to breed to our new TB stallion...when the market improves!!
          www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
          Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
            She was asking me if a solid TB mare who was 100% overo producer
            I'm not sure what this means. What color/pattern stallions was she bred to? What does "100% overo producer" mean? What sort of white did her foals have?

            would be more likely to produce an appaloosa colored foal when bred to a Knabstrupper stallion.
            Overo patterns are 100% separate from the appy patterns, so anything she's ever done color-wise is irrelevant when it comes to producing anything appy

            I told her I would ask the experts here. So...does a mare who carries the sabino gene stand a better chance of producing an app marked foal?? Are there other genes/things to consider. Thanks.
            Entirely separate.

            How do you know she carries a sabino gene? The only testable one right now is Sabino1 and that doesn't exist in TBs. However there are nearly 100% other Sabinos, at least one of which TBs carry. If she is completely solid (not sure if that's what you meant above) then it's more likely the chrome on foals is from the stallions. But it IS possible she is a carrier but also carries color suppression factors and while she doesn't express herself, she passes it on. But still, unrelated to any chance of appy patterns.
            ______________________________
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by crosscreeksh View Post
              Thanks Sonesta and mitma. The first mare of mine that she is interested in is a big bay mare, small star, 4 white pasterns.
              I should read everything first

              However, this isn't a solid mare - she's got white I'd bet she's Splash.

              She was bred to our late, overo TB stallion, Puchi's Rambo and produced two LOUD overo fillies - one chestnut and white and the other bay and white. The third colt was a dark/seal brown colt -not as loud, but "paint" eligible by Jagged Illusion a loud overo son of Puchi's Rambo.
              ALL that loudness, or at least 95% of it, came from PR and JI, not the mare.

              So 3 for 3 by overo TB's.
              And nearly 100% attributable to the stallions

              I am not an App/Knap. expert. I do understand the homozygous concept but...without looking at the stallion links...can a leopard be hz and will it always be leopard or can blanket show up too out of the same stud. In other words...it the pattern HZ or just the "spotting"?? The other mare I "might" consider leasing - not selling - is the loud chest/white filly out of the above mare. I sold the bay white filly to a California breeder last fall and plan to keep the chest/white to breed to our new TB stallion...when the market improves!!
              The stallion must be homozygous for the LP gene in order to guarantee passing it to the foal, and that only activates appy characteristics - striped feet, mottled eyes/nose/etc. But the horse must also have the PATN gene which puts an actual pattern on the horse. If he's just LPpatn, he'll have characteristics but no pattern (or he might varnish, can't remember, just no spotting pattern). If he's lpPATN he won't show anything because LP is needed to activate PATN.

              You need an LPLP PATN PATN stallion to guarantee appy color. Fewspots are this genotype, with the PATN being PATN-1 (there are multiple).

              IIRC, LP/lp PATN-1/? will be leopard, so the above stallion would always produce leopard on a non appy mare, ie this TB mare.
              ______________________________
              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

              Comment


              • #8
                And just to add - when talking about Lethal White in the context of "overo", it's REALLY important for the sake of clarity to say Frame Overo (or just Frame).

                Overo is ALL non-Tobiano/non appy patterns. Splash, Sabino, Dominant White, and Frame. ONLY Frame is the Lethal White gene.

                The APHA and entire Paint world has done genetics a HUGE disservice by starting this because it REALLY confuses people about Lethal White
                ______________________________
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                • #9
                  A leopard spotted Knabstrupper is NOT homozygous. The homozygous ones are the few spots (solid white with maybe some bits of color around face and legs).

                  What pattern you get (leopard, blanket, snowflake, few spot, etc) depends on MANY complicated factors from both the mare and the stallion.

                  Suffice it to say that a leopard will not always produce leopard, etc.

                  It's like Christmas every time a Knabstupper or Appaloosa foal is born. You just never really know for sure what you will get.

                  You really should do some research at http://www.appaloosaproject.info/

                  One last comment: Knabstrupper and Appaloosa breeders DO NOT want pinto genes brought into the mix. So, if you breed a pinto mare to a Knabstrupper stallion, you are very unlikely to get registration papers.
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                  • #10
                    Yeah and don't make the assumption that just because the foal is non-colored that it actually IS non-colored . We have a filly out of a plain bay Selle Francais mare that was born, plain bay. This year? She is varnishing out and spotting out! So, color can come on later, as well.
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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Thanks for all the info. I will pass this whole thread on to her and SHE can sort things out!!
                      Just so you know...when I called the bay mare 100% color producer I was referring to the fact that she had produced 100% overo babies 3/3, not that she is homozygous. A painted TB is a whole "nuther" set of rules. And we do not mess with the frame TB's in our breeding, at all!! As I remember..it is a "sin" to cross App and Paint genes. Some come out really yucky!!
                      www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
                      Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        But the foals' color has very, very little, if anything, to do with her. It's ALL those 2 stallions she's been bred to.

                        But regardless, she's a TB, she doesn't have any appy genetics, so at best a foal from her will be heterozyous, Leopard for example, when bred to a homozygous LP and PATN stallion. I don't know how many homozygous Knabs there are. At worst, the foal will be "nothing" in terms of appy. Middle ground is appy characteristics - mottling, striped feet, etc - but not spots or varnish, or varnishing without any spots.
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                        • #13
                          Let me second (third) the suggestion of using the Appaloosa Project

                          website, lots of great info.

                          To get a leopard you need lp/LP, PATN1/?

                          by which I mean to get the leopard pattern color you need both the LP gene and the PATN1 gene.
                          If you have LP/LP then you get a few spot.

                          If you have lp/lp PATN1/? then you get a solid, but it can throw Leopard if bred to an LP carrying mate.


                          Blanket patterning is PATN2. so for a blanket spotted patterning you need
                          lp/LP, Patn2/?

                          If you have LP/LP PATN2/? then you'll get a snow cap.

                          Sabino is not recognized by the KNN, so having the Sabino gene allows for more white to be expressed, and still get papers, but having Tobiano, or Overo will mean that you can't register the foal with KNN!

                          With a solid colored TB mare your best bet is a stallion that is LP/LP. PATN1/PATN1.
                          SO far the only stallion in North America that appears to have this color is Halifax Middelsom, since he has had so far 3 out of 3 Leopard foals from solid mares.
                          Sheila Archer, of the Appaloosa Project fame, says you need 10 leopard spotted foals from solid mares to be sure of PATN1/PATN1.

                          Halifax has 10 more foals due next year from solid mares, ask me again in 2013!


                          Hope this helps
                          Yours
                          Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
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                          New edition of book is out:
                          Horse Nutrition Handbook.

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                          • #14
                            no matter what, Sabino, tobiano, overo or any other Paint/Pinto genetic is NOT allowed for Knabstrupper breeding.
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                            • #15
                              Aurum, all of those Knaps with white socks, blazes, stars, etc, ARE Overo They are either Splash or Sabino, mostly. They absolutely do have pinto genetics in them, just not Tobiano or (to my knowledge) Frame.
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                              • #16
                                Yes, I have to agree with JB here. The sabino, splash and rabicano genes are in just about ALL breeds of horses, including the Knabstruppers. But we DO NOT WANT tobiano or overo in there at all.
                                Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Sonesta View Post
                                  Yes, I have to agree with JB here. The sabino, splash and rabicano genes are in just about ALL breeds of horses, including the Knabstruppers. But we DO NOT WANT tobiano or overo in there at all.
                                  You mean "frame"

                                  Sorry, it's just another one of those color things I have issues with, seeing "overo" used when I know frame is what's really meant. Splash, Sabino, and Dominant White all make up Overo , as Overo is really "not-Tobiano"
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Sonesta View Post
                                    It's like Christmas every time a Knabstupper or Appaloosa foal is born. You just never really know for sure what you will get.
                                    And it's ever changing. My mare was born liver chestnut with a small blanket and now she's a coppery red roan with liver chestnut spots on her rump. It seems like every spring she sheds out to a different color.

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                                    • #19
                                      Yes, more properly "frame overo." I have a hard time thinking of sabino and splash as part of the overo group of genes.
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                                      • #20
                                        Sabino and Splash are most definiately in Knabstruppers

                                        Here's one example. Note the high whites, broad white blaze etc.
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                                        Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
                                        Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
                                        New edition of book is out:
                                        Horse Nutrition Handbook.

                                        www.knabstruppers4usa.com

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