Inspections and thin mares

[Hillside H Ranch]

Thanks, I thought it was okay too, but Tiki seemed pretty adament that I was starving her of protein.

We dewormed the day we brought her home with strongid, this was with some reluctance b/c she is in that "no shots or deworming for 90 days" zone of her pregnancy. The vet said Strongid was our safest bet and b/c of her weight AND dull coat I thought it was worth the risk. I plan to give her an ivermectin type wormer this month. I do suspect they may be factoring into this.

If you suspect a parasite problem then I would give the imvermectin ASAP, regardless of the "90 days". I wouldn't sacrifice the mare's health on the very, very minimal risk that a dewormer will be harmful to the fetus. Plus, you aren't doing the unborn foal any favors if parasites are a problem, either. I try to avoid vaccines/meds/dewormers in the first 60 days, but if the mare needs them then I do them!

[okggo]

If you suspect a parasite problem then I would give the imvermectin ASAP, regardless of the "90 days". I wouldn't sacrifice the mare's health on the very, very minimal risk that a dewormer will be harmful to the fetus. Plus, you aren't doing the unborn foal any favors if parasites are a problem, either. I try to avoid vaccines/meds/dewormers in the first 60 days, but if the mare needs them then I do them!

See I talked to my vet about it and he said Strongid. Which I double dosed her with (I actually have a thread on here some where about it). As I mentioned, I did it reluctantly, but I did it. Then he said to follow up with Ivermectin in one month, which would be next week. Trust me, I thought the same thing as you and did as was suggested (he said Panacur and Strongid are the least offensive risk during this time).

Edited to add, this mare has NEVER missed a worming from our vets recommended schedule. EVER. I can guarantee that b/c I am the one who gives them to her. But when you get your horse back deteriorated you try to cover all bases.

[talloaks]

I'd worm her right tonight with Ivermectin!! Her photo looked like she had a pot belly with her ribs showing and sometimes that is an indication of worms. Strongid P and Panacur are pretty safe wormers so if she had a big load, it would be good to worm her now with Ivermectin. If she was in place that let her run down like that she may very well be fully infested. In which case, the strongid was good to use first to lessen the load before the ivermectin.

Good luck and your inspection.

[okggo]

I'd worm her right tonight with Ivermectin!! Her photo looked like she had a pot belly with her ribs showing and sometimes that is an indication of worms. Strongid P and Panacur are pretty safe wormers so if she had a big load, it would be good to worm her now with Ivermectin. If she was in place that let her run down like that she may very well be fully infested. In which case, the strongid was good to use first to lessen the load before the ivermectin.

Good luck and your inspection.

Okay. I'll do it when I get home. She is also preggo, so that could be a preggo belly (she is a narrow mare and shows REALLY easily). But I'll do it just in case.

[okggo]

Okay guys, that other picture, as I noted, was the WORST. AKA when she is stretched strange, she was also down a hill and I was up so it skewed her a bit weird so I took another here ... http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/i...t=IMG_7999.jpg

Still a lost cause? FYI I wormed her tonight as well, in case (we were at the due for it mark soon anyway).

[STF]

STF, I know it will count against her. I hate it, but certainly couldn't blame them. Maybe next year I could do the riding portion with her and try to get her upgraded...

If it were me, Id take her and the foal (as a yearling) next yr. You got her in this condition and its not your fault, but its hard to really judge her conformation without muscle. BWP allows yearling inspections for full registration, so Id go that route if it were me. Im sure she will look like another horse all together in a year!

[pintopiaffe]

Tonight's photo doesn't look half as bad as what I was expecting from your post.

I wish I could find the picture of Kat at her RPSI inspection.

22 years of age, with a HUGE Sempatico colt at side. Had a penetrating stifle joint injury at age 16, followed by almost 18 mos of stall rest, antibiotics, ULCERS etc. before I got her. I spent the first two years getting weight on her and clearing up the uclers--and was then presenting her on her third foal...

She not only was 'nursing lean' by August of that year, but had a horrible topline to begin with due to the stifle injury. I was fairly horrified to bring her in public, but was encouraged by the host...

She scored fabulously, and Otto had nothing but wonderful, kind things to say.

Some of the best broodies are huge milkers and loose weight... multiparous mares often have less than ideal topline. But the good inspectors can see past that to the structure, the angles, and of course, the foal produced. Some have such lovely big 'bread baskets' that the ribs always show slightly, even in very good weight.

You're doing your best. Shine every inch of her. Braid her. And be proud of her. You'll be fine. They know what they're looking at.

How much time do you have? Have you considered clipping the mare? I think the fading might make *you* think she looks worse than she does... it is fairly dramatic fading. Which honestly, I don't think they'll care much about, *but* if you've got more than 2 weeks, you might body clip and sheet her and end up with a more even coat.

[smokygirl]

I think she looks pretty good. (Ofcourse, I'm not the inspector ). But, a good polish and she should be fine. Use a nice dark shampoo if you can. Some of her fading is accentuating her light weightness.

[okggo]

I think I'm going to go for it and hope for the best. STF, I very much appreciate your thoughts though, and believe me that was definitely in consideration.

Re body clipping...the inspection is THIS friday. I'm not sure my choppy attempt would have enough time to grow out by then?

I do have a black shampoo though, and plan to use it.

PP the other picture looked worse. If she is just standing you can slightly see them. If she stretches, inhales deeply, or twists a certain way they are more pronounced. But that trot shot is from last night so it is my most recent. Like I said, she HAS put on weight in one month (thank goodness).

[camohn]

I think the inspectors can see past that as I took my not thin TB mare to inspection in July, and the judge commented on how surprised she was to see a NOT thin TB mare with a big filly at side!

[okggo]

I think the inspectors can see past that as I took my not thin TB mare to inspection in July, and the judge commented on how surprised she was to see a NOT thin TB mare with a big filly at side!

Now THAT is reassuring

[Celebrity]

My mare normally is a very easy keeper, but since becoming a mommy it's been a struggle to keep the weight on her once she foals. She is very well taken care of and every step is taken in attempt to keep/get more weight on her, but it is basically impossible. We took her to an AHHA inspection last summer with her Cotopaxi filly, and despite her being quite thin she still scored 47 bonits and was entered Main mare book premium and on site reserve champ. The judges did comment on her lack of topline, so she did score a bit less there, however they were great on seeing past the weight issue overall. This summer we went to a GOV inspection with her Graf Top colt, and although they did point out her topline again, she also made it into the Main Mare Book so I was thrilled of course!
Your mare is very nice, and I think the judges aren't surprised to see some a little thin, especially with a foal at their side. I definitely wouldn't let it worry you! You'll do great I'm sure! Best of luck

[STF]

Last year I was at almost every one of the inspections. There are skinny mares at all of them, if they be older mare with foals on the side, or hard keeping TB mares with foals, etc. Some were much worse that your mare.
I know thats not much support, but my point is, it does not seem uncommon.

[Tiki]

Thanks, I thought it was okay too, but Tiki seemed pretty adament that I was starving her of protein.

No, I was merely asking where the protein is in the diet since your note

Right now she gets a high fat feed (alfalfa meal/beet pulp based with oils, flax, etc), BOSS, Ultimate Finish AND Rice Bran.

doesn't say anything about the amount of protein in the feed. The only protein containing feed listed is the alfalfa. Many high fat feeds are high fat and high fiberwith minimal to no protein. I just wanted to make sure you weren't forgetting about the protein while being overly concerned about the fat.

[okggo]

No, I was merely asking where the protein is in the diet since your note doesn't say anything about the amount of protein in the feed. The only protein containing feed listed is the alfalfa. Many high fat feeds are high fat and high fiberwith minimal to no protein. I just wanted to make sure you weren't forgetting about the protein while being overly concerned about the fat.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure as I know you are pretty well versed in equine nutrition. If you thought she was deficient (aka WHERE IS THE PROTEIN??!!!!!) then I would have thought about adding something. After I posted the nutritional breakdown, does it seem sufficient to you now in protein levels?

[Tiki]

Probably, but 16 lbs a day is an awful lot of feed. I use ration balancers to keep down the amount of starch and grains fed and keep the protein up. For a thinnish broodmare with foal, or a hard keeper, I, personally, feed, for example (feeding twice a day) per feeding:

2.5 lbs Gro 'n' Win (30 % protein - NOT grain based)
2 lbs crimped oats
2 - 2.5 lbs alfalfa pellets
2 - 2.5 lbs Ultimate Finish or Ground Flax Seed Meal
1 lb soy bean meal
3/4 - 1 lb of well soaked beet pulp

They just blossom on this and it is really good for the nursing foal. Basically, the only grain they're getting in all this feed is 2 lbs of oats twice a day, and that's just for extra calories - oats have about 11% protein in them. The reason you want to keep the starch and sugars down when you have to feed bigger meals is that larger quantities of feed that these mares (or any really thin horses) need cause the small stomach to 'dump' feed into the lower intestine where it is fermented, rather than digested. This fermentation process causes acid gut syndrome which can lead to ulcers or cribbing to reduce the pain in the tummy.

You didn't ask, but I'm going to add anyway Foals less than 3 months of age don't have the enzymes to digest grain. What works really well for foals is to give them a baby bucket. Something short so when they put their nose in to see what's there it doesn't come above their eyes or they won't eat. Put a little bit of well soaked beet pulp in it and hang the bucket at foal height anytime from about 2 weeks of age on. At first the foal won't be interested and Mum will investigate and eat the beet pulp. After a short time, the foal will start to eat the beet pulp and the mare won't even look at it because it doesn't have 'grain' in it and hers does. When the foal is eating the beet pulp well, mix in a small handfull of milk-based foal starter pellets. The foal will clean it up and the mare won't even notice (mares LOVE milk pellets!) because that little buckey only ever contained beet pulp. You can gradually increase the amount of milk-based pellets until the foal is eating 1 lb twice a day. This takes a LOT of the strain off the mare nutritionally and helps the foal learning to eat and puts it well on the way to easy weaning without losing weight. At 3 months gradually mix ration balancer in and gradually decrease the milk-based foal starter and the foal will be eating well at weaning.

[okggo]

Tiki, thanks!! Her "grain" is alfalfa meal and beet pulp based (no heavy grains, corns, etc) with vitamin/mineral added. It reads more like mooshed alfalfa and beet pulp soaked in oil and added flax/vit/minerals. Is that still considered too much? I saw it more as an enhanced forage, but maybe I'm wrong?

Our youngest baby just turned 4 months, the other is 6 months. They get TDI 30 (similar to Grow-n-win) and oats to maintain weight. And of course they all get the free choice forage/grass. Would you recommend the beet pulp over the oats?

[Tiki]

Beet pulp is fiber, not protein. It is totally digestible fiber, as opposed to hay which has undigestible material, like lignins, in it. Alfalfa is normally around 14-16% protein, but she'd have to eat an awful lot of it to satisfy her protein needs IF or when she's nursing a foal. When nursing, I'd add a couple of pounds of ration balancer. If your TCI is the 30% Triple Crown, you can only feed about 1 lb twice a day because of the high selenium level. That particular feed is very good, but meant as a supplement instead of a true ration balancer because of the high selenium. You could also add a pound of soy bean meal. One huge advantage of beet pulp, well soaked, for foals and mares is you can mix a lot of stuff in it and not lose it - like ground or powdered feeds, and it keeps down the chance of choke.

No, I wouldn't switch the oats for beet pulp in the foals, but you could add it and it would nicely increase the forage base of their diet. If they've never had it, start small so they can build up the enzymes and microbes to digest it. The other really, really nice thing about beet pulp is that it seems to enhance the digestion of the other portion of the ration, which no other feed does. Too much starch and sugar compounds digestive problems, beet pulp seems to alleviate a lot.

[okggo]

Beet pulp is fiber, not protein. It is totally digestible fiber, as opposed to hay which has undigestible material, like lignins, in it. Alfalfa is normally around 14-16% protein, but she'd have to eat an awful lot of it to satisfy her protein needs IF or when she's nursing a foal. When nursing, I'd add a couple of pounds of ration balancer. If your TCI is the 30% Triple Crown, you can only feed about 1 lb twice a day because of the high selenium level. That particular feed is very good, but meant as a supplement instead of a true ration balancer because of the high selenium. You could also add a pound of soy bean meal. One huge advantage of beet pulp, well soaked, for foals and mares is you can mix a lot of stuff in it and not lose it - like ground or powdered feeds, and it keeps down the chance of choke.

No, I wouldn't switch the oats for beet pulp in the foals, but you could add it and it would nicely increase the forage base of their diet. If they've never had it, start small so they can build up the enzymes and microbes to digest it. The other really, really nice thing about beet pulp is that it seems to enhance the digestion of the other portion of the ration, which no other feed does. Too much starch and sugar compounds digestive problems, beet pulp seems to alleviate a lot.

Neat, thanks!! This is the ration balancer http://www.tdihorsefeeds.com/feed.asp (look at the TDI 30). How is the selenium in that? Since she is getting the 16% feed (the alfalfa meal mix) should I give her the full dose of TDI 30 (2 pounds) or 1/2 that?

Great on the beet pulp. I didn't know that, I'll have to get a few bags next time I stop by the feed store. Does it have to soak over night? Or for some determined period of time?

[Tiki]

The TDI 30 is a supplement. It cannot be used in the same manner as a 'proper' ration balancer. You can add up to 1 lb per feeding if feeding twice a day. It DOES have a nice amount of lysine in it. I would definitely use it for broodmares before while pregnant and up to 3 months after foaling. Lysine is a limiting amino acid (can't be made in the body) and needed for proper foal development and growth, just not more than 2 lbs/day.

Beet pulp comes as shredded or pelleted. There's a lot of 'fever' about which to use. Here's my take. Both bags cost about the same. Actually, usually the pelleted is a little cheaper by the bag. It's a LOT cheaper by the pound as the shredded comes only in 40 lb bags and the pelleted in 50 lb bags. The pelleted takes up a lot less space. Even the 50 lb bags are a lot smaller than the 40 lb bags, plus storage. The shredded has to be soaked at least 20 minutes, but it doesn't always take up all the water and it's very chewy - some horses don't like it. The pelleted is pulverized and then pelleted so it is VERY compressed. After feeding at night, I soak the morning's BP overnight, and after I feed in the morning, measure out the night's BP and soak it over the day. The pelleted takes up about 2-3 times its volume in water. If you have water left over, it takes the dust out of the other feeds added to it. (well, so does the shredded) It's great for horses that have trouble chewing as it has been pulverized - ask me how I know - - - - - I have a horse that had some facial paralysis due to tremendous numbers of ground hornets stinging her in the face and she has a hard time with the shreds. She thrives on the pelleted BP with her soaked feed. Interestingly, she doesn't like her dry feeds wet, but they're OK mixed in soaked BP. Lots of horses are like that. Still keeps down the choke.

Big advantages to beep pulp. Although horses love it, rodents and insects don't. And as long as it doesn't get wet it lasts for a very, very long time without losing its nutritional value. Very big bang for the buck here!

BTW, since your whole feed program sounds like it is alfalfa based, you may have an upside down Ca:P ratio which is NOT good for fetuses and growing foals. If so, you may want to look into a vitamin/mineral supplement that is balanced for an alfalfa-based diet. If that's what you're doing now with your supplement, never mind. If you're using a vitamin/mineral supplement based on a grass forage diet, you may want to switch.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I think I got distracted! and got carried away.