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Stallion owners, I have a question

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  • Stallion owners, I have a question

    Back in the ancient past when I was breeding my mares, there was no AI, so breeding was live cover. Now I'm looking at a stallioin that apparently has not been shown for a long time because the JC requires live cover and they can't breed and show him. the last stallion I bred my mare to would not only breed during show season, but sometimes breed and show in the same day.

    Can someone comment on this? Would you stop breeding your stallion for a season in order to show him, or visa versa?
    Last edited by Eventer55; Aug. 9, 2008, 09:14 AM. Reason: posted too soon
    RIP Kelly 1977-2007 "Wither thou goest, so shall I"

    "To tilt when you should withdraw is Knightly too."

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eventer55 View Post
    Can someone comment on this? Would you stop breeding your stallion for a season in order to show him, or visa versa?
    Well, we won't do live cover with any of our own stallions, but when Mannhattan was competing and at the top of his game (he made it up to Level 8 in the jumpers before being sidelined by an injury) we shipped. Because he was trained to ground collect, we were actually able to collect him in his stall at shows <smile>. So, in all the years we were competing him AND breeding him, we missed a grand total of two shipments.

    So to answer your question, if we have a stallion that was competing so heavily that we wouldn't be able to easily collect him, we'd offer him with frozen semen. Otherwise, the boys have to multi-task and both compete AND breed.

    Hope that helps!

    Kathy St.Martin
    Equine Reproduction Short Courses
    http://www.equine-reproduction.com
    Check out our Fall Enrollment Special!
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm a little, tiny breeder. Collecting for AI has only recently become available for me.

      I stopped *advertising* for breeding while we are getting to 3rd level. Which I thought would be just one season. More because of the muscle issues and slightly because of the tension of having new/outside mares on the farm and doing live cover while training. He still bred a couple a year, but I wanted the focus to be on training. Previously he can and did breed and show in the same week (though if it was the same DAY he came *home* and bred afterwards. )

      I'm not a professional, I don't have professional facilities, and the extra muscle tension, tight poll/jaw/back are things that I can't work *easily* through on my own. He's not naughty or rude, just this extra tension that I say is "his brain pickled in testosterone." I figured we'll get more bookings anyway once he's out and about at 3rd or above... and I also didn't think we'd be out of the game this year. We were supposed to be SHOWING this year. But gas prices killed that plan.

      So I for one, can certainly understand limiting live cover for training or showing reasons.
      InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

      Comment


      • #4
        I have live covered my stallion, and showed him later the same day. It depends on the temperament of the stallion, and his training/handling. It is a difficult thing to arrange though, for a busy stallion. You have to be willing to miss classes if a last minute collection/breeding comes in. Live cover is actually easier as long as the stallion comes home at night. We prefer to collect and live cover in the evenings, so morning classes would be fine (as long as a counter to counter request does not come in).

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        • #5
          We have also done live cover with our stallion and then loaded him up in the trailer to go to a show the same day. It totally depends on the stallion IMHO.
          Fox Haven Farm, Inc.
          Home of 2002 JC Registered stallion Artrageous

          Artrageous has his own Facebook page!

          Comment


          • #6
            Cunningham does not do live cover, but does show and collect, often on the same day. His owner says breeding relaxes him so he often goes better afterwards.

            (I've heard similar things from some women about their husbands.)
            http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

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            • #7
              Originally posted by fish View Post
              (I've heard similar things from some women about their husbands.)


              How is your stunning little Cunningham doing?

              Comment


              • #8
                We have always collected our stallions throughout the breeding season. We do our collections at home, therefore our guys never think they are going in the trailer for anything other than a show . I can't imagine having a stallion that couldn't be showing and breeding, though, as that is the kind of disposition we breed for. Meisterwind was always more of a "stud" in that he would make noise if you stabled him next to someone he didn't know, but he was never rank. Lion King really is no different than a gelding at the shows. You can stable him anywhere, in any company and he is happy as a clam. The only noise he ever makes is when he gets left alone . Then he will nicker a couple of times, take a nap, then nicker when his stable mate returns.
                Last edited by NoDQhere; Aug. 9, 2008, 11:01 AM. Reason: oops
                Patty
                www.rivervalefarm.com
                Follow us on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/River...ref=ts&fref=ts

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by fish View Post
                  His owner says breeding relaxes him so he often goes better afterwards.
                  That is exactly what I find.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by goodmorning View Post


                    How is your stunning little Cunningham doing?
                    Both my Cunningham boys are doing well, but my guess is that you're asking about Nemo, the 2008 model who's to be grey like his Daddy. Nemo is doing great-- just started weaning (gradual method) last week. He's almost 4.5 months old now, 630# and about 13.1 (+ or -) h. One of these days I've GOT to get pictures of him with his Jolly Balls.

                    Thanks for asking
                    http://www.tunnelsendfarm.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      See, my guy wants a nap afterwards. Well, actually, he wants to cuddle first, THEN a nap.

                      He really hurt his loins one year, breeding a tall mare. I have the perfect slope to do it on, but his hind legs slipped forward (down the hill) when he was up. He finished the job, but was really, really sore. I think I gave him like a month or even 6 weeks off before bringing him back.

                      I suspect if I had *more* horses in and out, a different facility set up, he'd be fine. When he stayed at my teachers for 3 mos, there was always activity. Mares in and out, next to him, etc. Didn't bother him in the least, and worked right through it.

                      It's just me here too though, and while he's not 'not-breeding' entirely, I really had to choose my priority. There aren't enough hours in the day for me to do all the regular chores, tease, clean (both) breed, AND work him if it's a work day for me. I have wondered aloud in the past if you even *can* do both if you work full time too and have no staff. I sort of am at a point where I feel like I might have to choose between breeding and riding.
                      InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                      Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

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                      • #12
                        Glad to hear the little fish is doing well Do post pics when you get a chance! They are both lovely - I love the Cunningham babies And I may have just the mare for him next year

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Some people actually send their stallions to a collection facility during the breeding season, bc they can't (or don't want to) do it themselves. Trying to juggle that and possibly a trainer and shows, can be a pain. Mares don't always cycle when you think they will, sometimes semen has to be sent out PDQ. And ofcourse, that would be when the stallion is unavailable during a show *(mares must know this stuff)*. For some people, it's just a convenience thing. They don't want to deal with breedings during a busy show season.

                          Most stallions can do both. A lot of owners don't want to do both.
                          "Sadly, some people's greatest skill, is being an idiot". (facebook profile pic I saw).

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                          • #14
                            From one perspective I can understand why some people do not show and breed their stallions concurrently. We do breed the same day as showing, all the time, if I can collect and get back in time to cork , I will. However for FEI classes we cannot leave the showgrounds 24 hours before the class. Now that said, we never breed live cover and I will give an example why. We show often arounded crowded venues and leading a stallion around in hand up at the ring (whom I also handle for breeding) while his rider walks a course, I have often politely waited for the safest moment to pass a crowded ingate and literally have had a mareowner back her mare into my stallion as he is lead past. Since stallions are very much in the public eye I would like it to be very clear with my stallions what their job is breeding at the vets with a dummy, and what their job is at crowded shows no matter WHAT other competitors do, at the show it never involves breeding live cover!

                            I will say it is very demanding to be on call 24/7, trying to arrange shipping out of shows last minute to collect, trainers often juggle multiples of horses and the semen shipping sometimes complicates things making breeding during showing a more onerous task . I can certainly see why some stallions will not breed during showing. Showing is also a very expensive endeavour and distracting the stallions and riders from their jobs in the performance ring is not worth to some owners.

                            Also shipping between show venues, there is often no way to accomodate a collection on the road meeting shippers cut off times if called at the last minute, which is why we ask mareowners to keep us apprised of when they are checking their mares so we can keep their needs in mind!

                            Lisa , Synergy Sporthorses
                            Http://www.hunterjumperstallions.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by smokygirl View Post
                              Most stallions can do both. A lot of owners don't want to do both.
                              That is the case with us. It got to be crazy trying to arrange a time that the rider/trainer was available to school for the day, and have half of the time, the stallion not here, when she was ready to ride. You are often dealing with multiple busy people that are constantly needing to change their schedule to fit in a collection - owner, collecting vet, rider, even instructors as they may be trying to be in regular lessons to prepare for shows.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                We used to regularly serve a mare before going to compete later that day, and occasionally breed again inthe evening as well if that was required. Never had a problem with it.

                                The only time Leo wears a stallion bit is when breeding or collecting and it really works like a signal to him. Any other time if i need to lead or show him in hand i use a snaffle bit or such if a bit is required to make sure he does not get confused. He is always very good around other horses when he was competing, even inthe middle of breeding seasons.

                                I remember one time he had bred a mare in the morning and we were doing the cross country phase of a horse trial later that day. Whilst warming up i rode by a friend on a mare for a few moments discussing a fence on the course and just felt Leo give a low "Well howdy" nicker to my friend's mare. Looking behind i could see signs of her showing interest in him so just said we'd better go off and concentrate on our own warmup again. This little interlude definitely didn't affect my stallion (in fact we were placed) but not sure if my friend's mare was somewhat distracted on course LOL.
                                Breeding Trakehners and NZWarmbloods downunder
                                Loewenherz - trak stallion
                                Ellie - trak x hann
                                www.rakaunuifarm.com

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I think a few people have hit on some big points! First, if you are showing and that involves TRAVELING to shows, or being at CDI or other big venues, it means you don't have access to your regular collection facility. So, do you tell the mare owner when they call, sorry, we're at a show this week? That gets you a bad rep as a SO... Someone will get on the internet and post about the SO's poor service - "my mare was ready to go, and they were not available, so I've missed an entire cycle".

                                  And Pinto P makes a good point too - some stallions get a little more "into themselves" when they are breeding - a little more edge, and that can be tougher to ride, tougher to get relaxation. Stallions who live cover often feel that even more, because any mare is a potential sperm repository

                                  AND - this is a biggy for some of us... When my stallion is collected, he is tired afterwards. It is a big strain on their hocks and back! We actually increase his feed on collection days. So, the last thing you want is a tired out competition horse

                                  One option for some stallions is to have frozen available - but not all stallions freeze, and not all MOs will deal with frozen.
                                  www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
                                  Director, WTF Registry

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by fish View Post
                                    Cunningham does not do live cover, but does show and collect, often on the same day. His owner says breeding relaxes him so he often goes better afterwards.

                                    (I've heard similar things from some women about their husbands.)
                                    I worked for a man with a rather bad temper for a while... and eventually his wife let us know, on the sly, that if he was acting nice it was because he'd gotten **** that morning!
                                    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                                    1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by FriesianX View Post
                                      I think a few people have hit on some big points! First, if you are showing and that involves TRAVELING to shows, or being at CDI or other big venues, it means you don't have access to your regular collection facility. So, do you tell the mare owner when they call, sorry, we're at a show this week? That gets you a bad rep as a SO... Someone will get on the internet and post about the SO's poor service - "my mare was ready to go, and they were not available, so I've missed an entire cycle".
                                      And as Hi Jump noted, with FEI events, the stallion can't leave the grounds. But most stallion owners know at the beginning of breeding season their tentative show schedules. It's easy enough to provide the mare owner with a list of shows that you are planning on attending. I think MO's get cranky, and rightly so, when they've been following and planning and then have it sprung on them that the stallion won't be available.

                                      And Pinto P makes a good point too - some stallions get a little more "into themselves" when they are breeding - a little more edge, and that can be tougher to ride, tougher to get relaxation. Stallions who live cover often feel that even more, because any mare is a potential sperm repository

                                      AND - this is a biggy for some of us... When my stallion is collected, he is tired afterwards. It is a big strain on their hocks and back! We actually increase his feed on collection days. So, the last thing you want is a tired out competition horse
                                      We find that how a stallion reacts to breeding and how "up and on the muscle" they are is stallion dependent. During breeding season, it can be tough keeping weight on a stallion and with the additional strain, stress and requirements of a competing stallion, it can be even worse.

                                      Ground collecting can help with the back and hock strain (as well as the not being able to take them off the grounds during FEI events ) but man, some stallions that literally just pace the fence can be a real challenge to keep weight on. Those 3, 4 and 5 year old boys seem to be the worst - if they make it through that stage, most settle into a routine and while they may not be easy keepers, at least get better about what they expect.

                                      One option for some stallions is to have frozen available - but not all stallions freeze, and not all MOs will deal with frozen.
                                      I think freezing is becoming more and more common place and an easier option for mare owners. And, those stallions that freeze the percentages aren't that much different than those that will ship cooled. About 30% will freeze and freeze really well. About 40% will freeze adequately and give a commercially acceptable freeze and about 30% don't freeze well. And, with the 30% that don't freeze well, sometimes it's just a matter of tweaking or trying different extenders to get something that is acceptable.

                                      It's not rocket science and while it may be intimidating, especially if you're buying it by the dose, I think it's a phenomenal option for stallion owners who want to compete their boys without the problems associated with having to collect during a competition. But, it does need to be made "user friendly".

                                      I kinda look at it that if you're going to offer your stallion commercially, you really need to be available for mare owners. I think the thing that really makes mare owners angry is when they book to the stallion and after booking, the stallion owner makes it difficult to get semen. If the SO knows that they're going to be competing a lot and that it is really disruptive to the stallion to collect AND compete, don't offer him that year or only offer him with frozen. At least the mare owner will know what to expect up front.

                                      Hope that helps!

                                      Kathy St.Martin
                                      Equine Reproduction Short Courses
                                      http://www.equine-reproduction.com
                                      Check out our Fall Enrollment Special!
                                      Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                                      Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                                      • #20
                                        Well,

                                        We're just a bitty bitty farm and until I'm done with Grad School we won't have to TIME to really get our very capable stallion "out there" showing and competing. . . sigh. . he really deserves to be in the Ring or on a cross country course he would really enjoy himself! So, for now, I am focusing on breeding him and offering him AI or Live Cover. He's doing a fan-dango job at his studly duties ;-) Now if only I could find a trainer. . who . . .LOVES Connemaras

                                        If we did have him in training/competing I would most definately offer both stud services as well as competitions. . . it would be a real job scheduling wise. . but I believe that stallions learn when it's time to breed and when it's time to do other jobs ;-)
                                        Willow Run Connemaras
                                        Home of: "Willow Boy" (*Chiltern Colm ex *Sillbridge Miranda by Thunderbolt)
                                        ~Irish Connemara Ponies for Sport and Pleasure~
                                        www.willowrunconnemaras.com

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