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Need help deciding which direction to go (stallion wise) with my mare....

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    I would post conformation pictures but I would actually have to get a good one and that seems impossible because I put her in front of a camera and she does everything in her power to look like a mule (i think it's because she is as stubborn as one and it gets captured in the photograph)...don't get me wrong I love her and she is beautiful but the way she photographs is well lets just call it interesting. I do however have a few videos of her being long lined that I would post but I am currently out of town so I will try and do that as soon as possible.




    And I am reading everything and taking it in. Everyone has their opinions and I like that because it helps me. Like I said I'm new to this I've been riding most of my life but I have never bred before. I have a quality mare that I am interested in breeding so I came here for advice. I appreciate all of the "constructive" criticism harsh or not because it is your honest opinion. Granted there were a few posts that seemed slightly harsh but it's written word I can't read it in the exact context it was intended, so no hard feelings. I just don't want to come off as irresponsible because I asked a question. That's what this forum is for asking questions and getting constructive and knowledgable help most of the time....


    But onto the real subject, I would be breeding her for myself this time because I want a new partner in crime and I want the whole experience. I've been searching for and window shopping for a new horse but I keep coming back to the breeding shed so I think thats where I'm going to stick with. There's really not much more I can say. But thanks everyone for your responses harsh or not they are appreciated.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      And I'm not saying I wouldn't breed for dressage...I was just asking what everyones thoughts were on possibly adding some more jump to the mix. Because if I could I would like to.

      Comment


      • #23
        This mare is by a jumper type stallion (Pablo) and out of a Gold Luck - Weltmeyer - Brentano mare (so dressage breeding).

        http://youtu.be/9QBFh2H1Mew

        She received pretty equal scores across all categories at her MPT (dressage, rideability, jumping) with an overall score of 7.36 (as a 3 year old).

        So you might look at Pablo (or Escudo II), both have get that cross both disciplines.
        Kris
        www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
        Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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        • #24
          I bred my Contucci mare to Qredit, for a Dressage foal. That may not be the best option for you, since your mare is so tall. Donarweiss may be a nice option, as he has jumping talent and is right around 16 hands. I also like Edgewood's suggestions, particularly of Escudo II. Lagoheidor is a GP Dressage stallion, who also has a jumping pedigree. I like the dual talents, personally.
          Kim
          'Like' my facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Calla...946873?sk=wall

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          • #25
            Originally posted by omare View Post
            Maybe all horses can "jump" (using the term lossely), but I am not sure all horses can jump safely.
            With further note, breeding a show jumper is more than just breeding a horse that can "jump". I love it when the dressage people say, oh my horse jumps out of his paddock--like that is meaningful in some way to predict jump ability.

            50% of any jumper's breeding is heart and the desire to jump and be the rider's partner in the show round. With a dressage horse, you want a temperament that waits and listens for cues. But with a show jumper, you need a horse that has a quick mind and wants to think on its own. A horse that is like a cat and moves through its entire body--not just be quick in the knees and able to jump small jumps--a horse with scope, power and a love for what it is doing.

            Sure, there are lots of horses that are in the jumper divisions that don't really like what they do. Or are over their heads because of bad management, or training, or stupid owners/trainers. But as a breeder of a show jumper you don't intentionally start with that as an acceptable model.

            The sports are specialized today--dressage, show jumping and eventing. Plus hunters are still trying to find an altered direction having moved from the thoroughbred of the hunting field to today's warmblood that can jump medium fences in a calm quiet manner.

            And all of these sports are supported by the amateur riders who make up the biggest base of each one. So you will see all kinds of horses out there and people having fun on them with a myriad of goals.

            But if you are a breeder, and own a dressage line bred mare, you have a responsibility to move that in the direction it was started. Or are you going to be someone who owns a bird dog breed and now want to change all those years of breeding by breeding it to get a guard dog? I hope not. The world does not need just another horse or mutt dog.
            Discipline is the Bridge between Dreams and Accomplishments

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            • #26
              Originally posted by feather river View Post
              But if you are a breeder, and own a dressage line bred mare, you have a responsibility to move that in the direction it was started.
              If you were saying that an owner of a jumper bred mare has a responsibility to breed the mare to a strong jumper stallion, I'd agree 100% with you. I believe that there is zero benefit in adding dressage breeding to a strongly bred jumper mare.

              However, I have seen way too many top level dressage horses with a significant dose of jumper bloodlines to agree with the quote above. Many astute dressage breeders will add careful doses of jumper lines for power, improving the jump in the canter, etc. They would not use just any jumper stallion, but would be looking for one with exceptional gaits and very strong rideability. Done carefully, adding a dose of jumper breeding to a dressage mare can be a very wise move. Emphasis on "done carefully."
              Mary Lou
              http://www.homeagainfarm.com

              https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

              Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Home Again Farm View Post
                If you were saying that an owner of a jumper bred mare has a responsibility to breed the mare to a strong jumper stallion, I'd agree 100% with you. I believe that there is zero benefit in adding dressage breeding to a strongly bred jumper mare.

                However, I have seen way too many top level dressage horses with a significant dose of jumper bloodlines to agree with the quote above. Many astute dressage breeders will add careful doses of jumper lines for power, improving the jump in the canter, etc. They would not use just any jumper stallion, but would be looking for one with exceptional gaits and very strong rideability. Done carefully, adding a dose of jumper breeding to a dressage mare can be a very wise move. Emphasis on "done carefully."
                ^^^What she said . And then you have horses like Edelweiss de Bonce who's pedigree screams jumping and he went out and did Dressage . I personally like adding a dose of really GOOD jump into a dressage bred mare's breeding. I wouldn't go the other way, however. It just doesn't seem to work that way P!
                Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                • #28
                  Ditto to HAF and ER. Adding jump to a dressage pedigree can be so beneficial! The points have been made, but to reiterate - you get so much more power, improved canter, etc., and it can't be denied that many jumper bred stallions were exceptional in the dressage arena - In addition to Edelweiss, Ferro comes to mind Look at the dual purpose stallions like Wellington, Pavarotti vd Helle, etc., as well.

                  Adding jumper blood to a dressage bred horse also is one hunter breeding strategy. So, I would say that there are many options available for your lovely mare. Good luck!

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Home Again Farm View Post
                    If you were saying that an owner of a jumper bred mare has a responsibility to breed the mare to a strong jumper stallion, I'd agree 100% with you. I believe that there is zero benefit in adding dressage breeding to a strongly bred jumper mare.

                    However, I have seen way too many top level dressage horses with a significant dose of jumper bloodlines to agree with the quote above. Many astute dressage breeders will add careful doses of jumper lines for power, improving the jump in the canter, etc. They would not use just any jumper stallion, but would be looking for one with exceptional gaits and very strong rideability. Done carefully, adding a dose of jumper breeding to a dressage mare can be a very wise move. Emphasis on "done carefully."
                    Absolutely this.
                    Kendra -- Runningwater Warmbloods
                    Home of EM Raleska (Rascalino/ Warkant) and Donatella M (Furstenball/ Jazz Time)
                    'Like' us on Facebook

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by stoicfish View Post
                      Umm then you must be appalled at the current trend that suggests adding jumper blood to dressage lines to produce some of the best dressage horses out there. That is a trend that is in backlash to the specialty breeding that has been going on in the last 15 or so years. The trend that has produced the flash without the UL quality.
                      While you do not want to add a typical dressage stallion to a jumper mare for a jumper foal...look at some of the top stallions in the last 20 years and many of them had BOTH UL jumpers and dressage horses as offspring. And usually they were thought of as jumper sires to start with.
                      Your mare's pedigree shows horses that show up in the pedigree in both jumpers and dressage. By all means pick a jumper stallion that can throw good movement. Or in other words, not a specialty jumper stallion like Stakkato. Think of a sire like Voltaire, the G-lines, Contender, Argentinus, Ramiro, Ulft, Nimmerdor.....
                      feather river
                      You are ignoring both the evidence that the same qualities that make good jumping horses can also make great dressage horses and the fact that the OP has said several times that she was not interested in just any jumping stallion but one who would compliment a dressage horse.
                      Check out the top 20 dressage sires and you will see jumper stallion within 3 gens or less and some actually have produced some jumpers themselves.
                      How about horses like Le Mexico? He is in both top jumpers and dressage as well as stallions like Nimmerdor. Several of the Verbands directors have recommended jumping stallion for the dressage breeders and many breeders are introducing Holstein jumpers into their programs. How about horses like Contango? Was his breeder irresponsible.... Same as the people that use Come Back ll as a dressage stallion. I really do not understand you view point.

                      ---- Quando-Quando(top dressage) from Quattro (top jumper), just one more of tons of examples.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by feather river View Post
                        Contucci is definite dressage--do not take her to a jumper stallion. If a filly, it would be of no breeding value, and if a gelding, just a riding horse with no special direction.
                        Agreed...we have a Contucci at our place that couldn't jump his way out of a paper bag...dressage, all the way!

                        Edited to add...he is a very nice horse and a blast to ride...no insults intended here!
                        Last edited by flyinghorse; May. 11, 2012, 07:15 AM.
                        LLT

                        www.emeraldspringequestrian.com

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          This thread has become shameful to read. Insults flying, Dressage vs Jumping, don't do this, don't do that, you're irresponsible etc etc etc.

                          IMO it's important to read the OP carefully. She wants a stallion who is an all around athlete. Perhaps done both well and produces offspring for both disciplines. She wants to add athleticism for jump and movement and has not labeled her breeding direction.

                          This goes back to folks being more focused on the RIDING TYPE and not the RESUME BEHIND THE PEDIGREE. Understanding the generational production in a pedigree is your first required tool before breeding. Many of you should know that, and should refrain from casting stones at someone who is asking for help.

                          TO the OP: We are happy to help you find a stallion that fits your requirements regardless of whether it's our own or someone else's. Please feel free to contact via PM.

                          Cheers
                          Hyperion Stud, LLC.
                          Europe's Finest, Made in America
                          WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
                          Standing Elite and Approved Stallions

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                          • #33
                            If I were you, I would ask someone (or several someones) who stands several jumper stallions for their opinion. It may be that they have some experience breeding mares with pedigrees similar to your mare. They may say one or the other of their own stallions might fill the bill; and they should be able to explain to you why they would.

                            Also, why not contact Hilltop Farm where Contucci is? Ask them your questions. I would think that they would likely have a good idea about the offspring of mares by Contucci.

                            If nothing else, this would provide you with more information so you can make an informed decision about a potential mate for your girl.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I do not see any stone casting--and it was actually informative. These are especially interesting questions for the related issues for people trying to breed eventers as they are trying to capture movement, jump, stamina, speed and courage.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Eyes wide shut....
                                Hyperion Stud, LLC.
                                Europe's Finest, Made in America
                                WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
                                Standing Elite and Approved Stallions

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                                • #36
                                  Hmm...Eyes wide shut....?
                                  I see you are not to be disagreed with.That is an eye opener.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by omare View Post
                                    Hmm...Eyes wide shut....?
                                    I see you are not to be disagreed with.That is an eye opener.
                                    There is several posts that called the OP irresponsible for even suggesting that she may use a jumper stallion. This is really not a fair criticism and not an accurate view of breeding. It was in several posts and I too was a bit taken back by some of the comment to a person just coming on to the board looking for information.

                                    From Breed a Superior Dressage Horse

                                    "This filly is a nice type, correct with a strong back and hindquarters and a wide hock that reaches well into her cannon bone. Her head fits her well," said Dr. Christmann. "Stallion choice: I would choose a stallion with uphill movement even with Holsteiner blood to improve her movement and enhance her jumping ability."

                                    Next, a large-framed, powerful looking chestnut yearling Hanoverian filly by Contucci and out of a Calypso II mare entered the ring. Dr. Christmann said the filly would be good for either dressage or jumping and commented about her strong, correct legs and her wonderful neck. He suggested a compact, refining stallion to further improve the head and topline.
                                    http://www.equisearch.com/horses_car...dtbreed021103/

                                    And also from Dr Christmann ...
                                    It does not make sense to breed dressage blood into the jumping horse but it makes sense to breed jumping blood into the dressage horse’ he said, though he pointed out that not all jumping blood was suitable.
                                    http://www.horsebreedersmagazine.com...e-1/4557960646

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by omare View Post
                                      Hmm...Eyes wide shut....?
                                      I see you are not to be disagreed with.That is an eye opener.
                                      Analyze it any way you like.
                                      Hyperion Stud, LLC.
                                      Europe's Finest, Made in America
                                      WWW.HYPERIONSTUD.com
                                      Standing Elite and Approved Stallions

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Rosies mom View Post
                                        Also, why not contact Hilltop Farm where Contucci is? Ask them your questions. I would think that they would likely have a good idea about the offspring of mares by Contucci.

                                        If nothing else, this would provide you with more information so you can make an informed decision about a potential mate for your girl.

                                        Ditto this. Hilltop is great to deal with and very honest. They know their stallions and what they produced. They would understand what lines he has been crossed with and what are the results. They can give you some great advice.
                                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Fred deserves a look!

                                          Take a look at A Fine Romance especially his offspring
                                          breeder of Mercury!

                                          remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

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