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Who is the Breeder?

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  • Who is the Breeder?

    A friend who was speaking with Ken Ball at the USEF, was told that the USEF accepts that the Breeder is the person who owns the foal when them are foals. All of our horses/ponies are either OldNA or Westfalen and their position is that the Breeder is the owner of the Mare when she was BRED. Ken Ball indicated that the USEF has some agreement with the warmblood registries that it's o.k. to use the owner at foaling as the Breeder.
    For those of you who work with other registries - what is the position of your registries. I don't know of any of the European registries that don't follow the owner at BREEDER to be the BREEDER.
    Thanks for any feed back.
    Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
    "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

  • #2
    Originally posted by ise@ssl View Post
    A friend who was speaking with Ken Ball at the USEF, was told that the USEF accepts that the Breeder is the person who owns the foal when them are foals. All of our horses/ponies are either OldNA or Westfalen and their position is that the Breeder is the owner of the Mare when she was BRED. Ken Ball indicated that the USEF has some agreement with the warmblood registries that it's o.k. to use the owner at foaling as the Breeder.
    For those of you who work with other registries - what is the position of your registries. I don't know of any of the European registries that don't follow the owner at BREEDER to be the BREEDER.
    Thanks for any feed back.
    I've never heard this before. I always assumed that the USEF noted the person who bred the horse is the breeder (ie, if I leased a mare and bred her, I could be the breeder). As in the person that puts all the money up for the nearly one year wait for hopefully something amazing is the BREEDER! I've never heard of any other way that this is recorded.

    However, I could certainly see the USEF being completely "ignorant" (I mean that nicely) about who the breeder is and simply taking who ever is written on the form. Because they don't ask who "owned" the mare, my experience is they have a long way to go with regard to breeding information. I think this definitely would be a good area for USEF to clarify and to recognize why it is so important to accurately record it.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Well I do know the Jockey club goes by the owner at foaling.

      But what troubles me is that Ken Ball indicated the USEF has an "agreement" with the warmblood registries that it's at the time of foaling. I've been breeding warmblood horses for over 22 years and I was always told it was the person who BRED the mare and either owned or leased her at the time.
      Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
      "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

      Comment


      • #4
        Hanoverian - owner of the mare at breeding
        Mary Lou
        http://www.homeagainfarm.com

        https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

        Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ise@ssl View Post
          Well I do know the Jockey club goes by the owner at foaling.

          But what troubles me is that Ken Ball indicated the USEF has an "agreement" with the warmblood registries that it's at the time of foaling. I've been breeding warmblood horses for over 22 years and I was always told it was the person who BRED the mare and either owned or leased her at the time.
          I agree it is troubling and also very odd. I can't imagine any sort of agreement and wonder if he was maybe not clear exactly what he was talking about? I still don't know why the agreement would matter with the USEF because you truly could put anything down as breeder as there is no cross-check of any sort. I could buy your foal today and put down Charlie Brown and while I believe you could state your disagreement to who the breeder is, if I own it and record it you can't change it unless I agree. If the USEF does have some sort of agreement it frankly seems to fly directly in the fact of collecting the breeding information at all.

          ** just to be clear, I was talking about registering the foal with USEF, at that time there are no "checks" on who the actual breeder is (ie, who owned/leased the mare.)
          Last edited by ljcfoh; May. 1, 2012, 04:01 PM. Reason: clarity

          Comment


          • #6
            Sounds like a matter of simple expediency to me. One less thing to worry about or try to police.
            "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              FYI - he specifically mentioned the AHS and the AHHA and that they had agreed to the Breeder at the time of Foaling.
              Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
              "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ise@ssl View Post
                FYI - he specifically mentioned the AHS and the AHHA and that they had agreed to the Breeder at the time of Foaling.
                That is terrible, if it is true.
                Mary Lou
                http://www.homeagainfarm.com

                https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

                Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

                Comment


                • #9
                  Morgans-owner or lessee at the time of breeding.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well as USEF is an organisation that represents FEI (or not ???). What kind of rule has FEI ..

                    how do they want to know who was owner when foal was bron ? Owner of mare at time of breeding is always on any records - so much easier to determine.
                    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                    2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                    May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto

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                    • #11
                      "how do they want to know who was owner when foal was bron ? Owner of mare at time of breeding is always on any records - so much easier to determine."

                      I agree with that--and if it is so terrible dont sell the mare until she foals! :-)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My understanding is that the breeder is either the owner or leasor of the mare, who pays for and contracts with the SO, and whose name appears on the breeding certificate.
                        If I buy a mare in foal, I am not the breeder of the foal (just the purchaser/owner). Anything else seems irrational.
                        Sunny Days Hanoverians
                        http://www.sunnydayshanoverians.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Welsh Pony & Cob Society -- USA and UK -- both are the same. Breeder is the person who owns the mare at the time of BREEDING.

                          Anything else seems absolutely absurd to me.
                          Family Partners Welsh Ponies - Home of Section B Welsh stallion *Wedderlie Mardi Gras LOM/AOE http://www.welshponies.com
                          Click here to buy: A Guide To In Hand Showing of Your Welsh Pony

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Here's the scenario. A friend owned a mare and they had covered her with her stallion. Vet did not detect any pregnancy. Mare was offered for lease. Individuals who leased the mare were told that the mare had been covered and if it DID turn out that she was pregnant - the foal would belong to my friend. They agreed to that. They came back and said they wanted to buy and the mare and that "no" she was not showing any signs of being pregnant. Mare is sold. Fast forward ...mare foals a filly. My friend notifies them that she is the legal owner of the foal. This goes a back and forth for months. The legal situation is on going. MY friend had notified the USEF that the current mare owner might attempt to get a HID for the filly and explained that the owner ship of the filly is hers.

                            As background the mare is a TB and the stallion that covered her is an Oldenburg approved by RPSI.
                            Friend finds out the people who now own the mare have been showing the filly in hand and have submitted the following information: 1. That the foal is a Welsh/TB 2. that the Breeder is the mare owner's daughter and that it's a colt.
                            My friend contacts USEF and speaks to Ken Ball about this and states she OWNED the mare when she was covered and she owns the stallion and all the details. That's when he tells her about this "Breeder is the owner of the mare when foal is born".
                            Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                            "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              And again - expediency. USEF is not interested in being involved in this legal dispute nor should they be. They have a CYA policy to rely on. Period. Full stop. Your friend should take up the matter in a court of law and quit trying to have the USEF police this - it's not their job.

                              As for the rest about the AHS and/or AHHA, etc., your statements are nothing more than hearsay and I wouldn't rely on such "statements" coming second hand thru the USEF about the policies of any of these registries. In any case, neither of these registeries is involved with your friend's issue so not sure why this is even relevant.

                              I would hazard an educated guess to say that the USEF takes the information the AHS gives the USEF for purposes of obtaining a UELN for the foals and isn't filling in any blanks on its own.
                              "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                IME, the USEF accepts as "breeder" whoever's name is filled out as such on the horse recording application when it is submitted to the USEF.

                                Just as they accept whoever's name is listed as "owner," and for that matter just as they accept whatever name anyone fills out as being that of the horse being recorded.

                                The only purpose served by the USEF recording is that the horse then enters their database and points won can be tracked. That is as far as the mission goes--they are somewhat stricter with changes of ownership than for initial recording, with a new owner sometimes not able to recover points won under an old owner without a bill of sale, etc...But if you want to just record the horse again from scratch, as if the horse simply had been dropped into a cornfield by aliens (ie, came from nowhere), that's completely fine.

                                A 1/2 Welsh COLT, however, would seem to be an entirely different animal than a 1/2 RSPI/TB FILLY.

                                Perhaps there is even more to this than you or we have been made aware of.
                                Inner Bay Equestrian
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                                KERx

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Good Heavens Bent Hickory - I heard the phone conversation - my friend was in my office. That's not hearsay. And DUH - it's obvious it's a legal matter. The ISSUE IS that the horse was knowlingly entered into the HID system with false information. Sorry you don't have a problem with that but some of us do.

                                  As far as mentioning the AHS - it was because there was a post on here where someone stated the AHS does use the definition of Breeders at the person who owned the mare at the time of Breeding.

                                  No need to jump on me again Bent Hickory.
                                  Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                                  "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by ise@ssl View Post
                                    The ISSUE IS that the horse was knowlingly entered into the HID system with false information. Sorry you don't have a problem with that but some of us do.
                                    I love it - "knowingly entered ... false information." If I only had a quarter for every time I heard that ... There are lots of issues here, many of which revolve around contract law, and not a single one of them should be resolved by the USEF. I'm sorry you elect not to recognize that.

                                    Some people do bad things - doesn't mean I agree with them or what they do. BUT, I'm also not going to join a lynch mob against the USEF for attempting to stay out of these disputes.
                                    "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I agree that this is not the USEF's business and they cannot be expected to take sides or assist either side in this matter.

                                      Seems the "breeder" should be determined by the rules of the registering body (if the foal is registered. If the foal is not registered, then it's a civil matter to be decided by the courts during the determination of to which party the foal belongs.).

                                      If I were queen of the breeding world, the breeder would be the owner of the mare at time of breeding, but registries vary greatly on this issue and USEF is not the one with the responsibility to decide the issue.
                                      Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        USEF does not maintain an ownership database.
                                        As a courtesy, they provide awards for breeders and stallions.

                                        They have to set a policy that covers all breeds.That means that if the majority of breeds use a certain policy that's what USEF adopts.

                                        And once again the WB breeders overlook the fact that they are a wee, tiny piece of the pie.

                                        Lot more domestic ASB, Arab breeders involved. And I'm sure they have a lot more pull based on sheer numbers.

                                        The center of the universe is not WB.

                                        As an example for those of you that seem horrified by this screnario keep in mind that if I buy a custom foal or in utero I'm paying what amounts to stud fee and a lease on the mare yet I'm not the breeder because I did not own or lease the mare. Makes no difference that the in utero buyer may have set the breeding.
                                        You can't make it fair for everyone.

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