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Slightly embarrassingly simple WB registry question?!!

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  • Slightly embarrassingly simple WB registry question?!!

    So I've ridden and shown branded WBS my whole life - yet I've never thought of this question until today!

    When a foal is born, to specifically Hanoverian parents, it has to be inspected to be branded, right? I always thought this was the beauty of the registries, that only good moving, sound, well-put-together horses are registered. However I just noticed that the young mare I'm breaking at the moment is branded. She has a club foot, extremely wonky confirmation, moves really laterally, and would never vet clean I don't think, simply bc of her way of going - it looks off.

    She's probably going to be a lovely pleasure horse for someone, and totally serviceably sound - but was she actually inspected and passed with that movement and conformation? Or was she branded simply bc she's registered to two HAN parents?

    I'm now realizing how little I know about all the registries, inspections, etc - can anyone give me some basic insight?

  • #2
    As far as I know, the ISR/Oldenburg Registry is the only one that requires all foals to be presented for inspection in order to be registered. Most registries will allow a foal to be registered via mail if both parents have been inspected and approved for breeding and the foals' DNA test matches those parents.

    However, because this mare is branded, she was obviously seen at some point. I'm not sure there is much the inspectors could do, though, since both parents must've been approved, they could not revoke her. After all, she is genetically a HAN. I'm betting that she would not be approved for breeding, or would be put in the lowest book.

    I always thought this was the beauty of the registries, that only good moving, sound, well-put-together horses are registered.
    Nope! Ideally, only decent moving mares, with mostly correct conformation will be approved for breeding. But it is still up to each individual breeder to decide to breed only the best mare(s) they can afford and properly match them to suitable stallions.
    If you look at the websites for the various registries, you will find guidelines for mare inspection. Most breeds score on a number of conformation categories and gaits. Then, based on those scores (and sometimes extra performance requirements) a mare is placed in one of several "Books." Often they are named Premium (or Elite), Main Stud Book (or Main Mare Book), and Stud Book (or Mare Book/ Pre-Mare Book). So, some rather lackluster mares are approved for breeding by all the registries- though hopefully none with major genetic flaws. Different registries are known for being a little tougher than others, but it is always up to the individual breeders to focus on truly improving the breed and not just creating more animals.

    Hope this helps a bit.
    www.trinitysporthorses.com

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    • #3
      If both parents have been approved for breeding by the registry, then that registry has no choice but to register/brand the resulting foal, regardless of how they feel about it. The registry does not pass or fail foals that are eligible for registration. Some registry's score the foals, some don't. They will recommend that an animal is not bred if they are sub quality, but that's it.

      Where they do their quality control is at the mare/stallion inspections. Stallions are turned down all the time as they can have a large impact on the breed. Mares who are registered with the registry they are presented to can't be outright turned down at their mare inspection (if they meet all the criteria for inspection). For sub par individuals, they will score them so they are placed in the lowest mare/stud books and therefore they cannot produce an approved stallion or Elite mare, which limits the impact they can have on the breed. Mares who are registered with an outside registry and are looking for approval within another registry can be turned down if they don't score high enough.

      The AHS has a rule that if any sub score at a mare inspection is below a 5, then the whole conformation score is that number, regardless of how well they scored on all the other conformation sub scores. This is a safeguard in case a horse comes in that has very good conformation except for one glaring fault. If all the other sub scores are high enough and only one sub score is low then the mare could pretty easily get into a higher stud book, which is not ideal. This way, one glaring fault (if scored low enough) can override a bunch of higher scores and keep a mare in the lowest book.
      Eliza
      www.foxwoodhanoverians.com

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Gil's Girl View Post
        She has a club foot, extremely wonky confirmation, moves really laterally, and would never vet clean I don't think, simply bc of her way of going - it looks off.
        Keep in mind a club foot can be man-made, but even if it's genetic, it's not always apparent as a foal.

        "wonky" confirmation can be that way due to body issues, soreness, due to poor training, injuries that aren't detected, and more, all of which can cause that lateral movement and worse.

        I'm not saying this mare would have been perfect if she'd been raised better, not saying she wasn't raised well and she is what she would have been regardless - just saying that what you see as an adult isn't always what they were destined to be
        ______________________________
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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        • #5
          And I don't know a single breeder that has been in this game for any length of time that hasn't waited with baited breath for 11 months, only to have the mare foal and say "Oh man - won't be doing THAT cross again"
          "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

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          • Original Poster

            #6
            This explains it very well - thank you! So I think I thought things were a bit more rigorous in the registration dept - mixed it up with the breeding stallion/mare approvals - thank you!

            Comment


            • #7
              AHS doesn't "score" foals for exactly that reason - there are so many things that don't show up until the foal goes through a few growth spurts. And many foals have lateral appearing walks just due to very long legs and very short bodies - many of those walks "self correct" as the foal grows into itself. So, again, hard to tell with foals, especially if she was presented very young.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TrinitySporthorses View Post
                As far as I know, the ISR/Oldenburg Registry is the only one that requires all foals to be presented for inspection in order to be registered. Most registries will allow a foal to be registered via mail if both parents have been inspected and approved for breeding and the foals' DNA test matches those parents.
                Correction on the above - OHBS/GOV also requires foal inspection. This has always been a requirement of the Oldenburg Verband, and as the official arm of the Verband in North America, OHBS/GOV must adhere to that policy.

                I thought RPSI also required foal inspection, but they may have changed this policy in recent years.

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                • #9
                  I know that with ATA that not all official registry book mares score well enough to be moved into the official stud book and there colts can't ever get approval into the OSB and there fillies will go into a lower book.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
                    AHS doesn't "score" foals for exactly that reason - there are so many things that don't show up until the foal goes through a few growth spurts. And many foals have lateral appearing walks just due to very long legs and very short bodies - many of those walks "self correct" as the foal grows into itself. So, again, hard to tell with foals, especially if she was presented very young.
                    OHBS/GOV does not score foals, either. They do give foal premiums, but quite honestly, I wish they would do away with them. I used to like the idea, but many breeders get too hung up on them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I don't know about AHS - but I know with KWPN and other registeries there are different "books".

                      Like Main Mare Book is for mare which scores a minimum score, with a Premium Book for better scoring mares and other books including COP - Certificate of Pedigree - saying horse has the blood (usually at least 1 parent), but not implying anything else (may only be blood of 1 parent, unapproved parent, etc.).

                      And a club foot doe not automatically eliminate a horse from "better" books - the famous jumper stallion Voltaire had a club foot - and he did pass it on to his offspring. My Wolfgang v. Voltaire mare has his club foot but great confirmation otherwise and club foot has not impacted her soundness at all.
                      Now in Kentucky

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Valentina_32926 View Post
                        And a club foot doe not automatically eliminate a horse from "better" books - the famous jumper stallion Voltaire had a club foot - and he did pass it on to his offspring. My Wolfgang v. Voltaire mare has his club foot but great confirmation otherwise and club foot has not impacted her soundness at all.
                        Agree, and would also point out that a club foot can only be ascertained by xray - some very upright feet are just fine "inside". Abdullah is another famous jumper with upright feet, who often passed them on.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          one other note, Dansk Varmblod does not register horses without inspecting them. However like all European registries every foal out of approved DWB parents is registerable. As previous noted one would not necessarily breed that mare and she certainly would not be put in the top mare book.
                          Erica H. Max
                          Fire Hjorner Farm
                          Breeders and Importers of Danish Warmbloods

                          www.danishwarmblood.com

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DownYonder View Post
                            Correction on the above - OHBS/GOV also requires foal inspection. This has always been a requirement of the Oldenburg Verband, and as the official arm of the Verband in North America, OHBS/GOV must adhere to that policy.

                            I thought RPSI also required foal inspection, but they may have changed this policy in recent years.
                            So, just to be clear, are you saying a foal from an approved Hanoverian dam and sire can be rejected for registration?
                            Yes, I know how to spell. I'm using freespeling!

                            freespeling

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              She is talking about the Oldenburg society, not the Hanoverian society.
                              I think all she is saying is that they must be PRESENTED at an inspection for registration.
                              Eliza
                              www.foxwoodhanoverians.com

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally Posted by DownYonder
                                Correction on the above - OHBS/GOV also requires foal inspection. This has always been a requirement of the Oldenburg Verband, and as the official arm of the Verband in North America, OHBS/GOV must adhere to that policy. I thought RPSI also required foal inspection, but they may have changed this policy in recent years.

                                Originally posted by altjaeger View Post
                                So, just to be clear, are you saying a foal from an approved Hanoverian dam and sire can be rejected for registration?
                                If the dam was not inspected by official Oldenburg inspectors and approved into the Oldenburg mare books, her foal will not be eligible for Oldenburg registration papers, no matter who the sire is.

                                OTOH, if the dam is approved into the Oldenburg MMB, and the sire is not approved by Oldenburg but is fully approved by a recognized registry such as AHS/VhW, etc., the foal *may* be eligible for a breeding allowance that will allow it to receive regular Oldenburg registration papers.

                                I would think a foal from a sire and dam that were both approved for Hanoverian breeding would most likely get Hanoverian papers - esp. since that can be done by mail (no foal inspection required for Hanoverian registration).

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Gil's Girl View Post
                                  When a foal is born, to specifically Hanoverian parents, it has to be inspected to be branded, right?
                                  DownYonder is correct in that a Hanoverian foal does not need to be presented, nor branded, for papers. DNA typing yes.

                                  Years ago, having returned from Germany and seeing a wickedly infected brand, I decided not to brand my Hanoverian foal. So he is out there, fully AHS registered, DNA typed, but competing without a Hanoverian brand. One Hanoverian breeder, sight unseen of said Hanoverian, decided to publicly announce that my foal must be inferior because he was not branded, though I did present him at a Hanoverian inspection with very nice comments by Dr. Christmann.
                                  The virtual "woodshed" seems the only remedy for willful fools .

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    On another note...it is always worth it to go ahead and get the foal's Lifetime USEF Recording ($35) since it is so much cheaper compared to getting it done when they are adults ($200) or paying the annual recording fees ($75 yr)
                                    "The sea was angry that day, my friends - like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      For hanoverian:
                                      One has to differentiate between registration into the registry which is done by branding the foal that for which the requirements regarding parentage are fulfilled.

                                      Than we have the approval for breeding stock and here you have the selection that a registry is to provide. Stallions have to be shown to a inspectors (and only very few that are allowed to inspect stallions exist per registry - German hanoverian they have 7). A stallion has to fulfill additional requirements regarding performance before he is approved and can sire foals that will get a brand.
                                      Mare have to be presented once in their life before their foal(s) is(are) branded. they will receive scores and upon this will be put into different studbooks. Only foals by mares out of the main studbook will receive the so called "full" brand. But as in these days the quality of mares is good enough that alomst everyone gets into the main mare book - this part of the selection becomes more and more unimportant.

                                      The idea is different: it is not looking at the foals and only brand/register the ones that look nice. The goal is to put emphasis on the quality of the individuals that are used in breeding and hence "secure" the quality of the breed. If one would just register the nice looking foals and would only go from there one would take the genetic component out of breeding. The traits to be found in an individual are embedded within the genes and by selecting the parents looking at the wanted traits the improvement overall of the breed can be archieved. This can obvioulsy mean that not the quality of each individual is improved compared to parents breed, but looking at the average the breed will always be improved.

                                      Difficult to explain fo me in english...hope I could transport the point.

                                      If you go here:
                                      http://www.hannoveraner.com/2374.html
                                      And read all the points that are listed on the left (looks more than it is) you are very well informed about he most important points within a registry.
                                      I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                                      www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
                                      2017: Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - Prince Thatch and Finnigan - Sandro Hit - Rouletto

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