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Envious of those of you who get pregnancies with Frozen...

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  • Envious of those of you who get pregnancies with Frozen...

    This year was my first attempt at breeding with frozen semen and I had no success. We used Quarter Back and Briar 899. The semen from both stallions looked nice but still no pregnancies.

    The first mare was bred to Briar and she was at the vets farm for close monitoring. She was checked ever 6 hours. She ovulated within a 6 hour time frame and was inseminated after she ovulated by an hour or two. Vet told me I could bring her home right after insemination so I did. She comes up empty at 16 days. We try again and this time she has two large follicles. She was inseminated after one ovulated and just as the other was about to ovulate. At my request she stayed there for monitoring of inflammation and she was flushed once as she has mild inflammation. I am thinking YAY... two chances as two eggs were let go. And again nothing. So out of money and patience I bred her to one of my stallions. She has had two foals by my stallions and caught first try. I will try her again in 2009.

    The next mare was inseminated between two ovulations as well. The first was let go and the second was just about to. Again no pregnancy. Now this mare was not monitored after insemination as I did not learn about it until after she was bred. She never did cycle normal again after the first attempt. She had a cystic follicle she would not let go of. We worked on getting her ready for over a month and we could not get her to cycle proper. So she is getting the year off and we will start again early in 2009. I hate giving her the year off but I do not want an August foal either.

    So can everyone who has been successful with frozen tell me about what works for you and what has not? Obviously monitoring after insemination is important. Do you use oxytocin and if so how often? What do you flush with as I have heard some antibiotics cause a reaction as well?

    I was referred to this vet by someone who was successful using them on their mares. I tried two mares and two different stallions with no results so should I find/look for a new vet?

    I am soooooo envious of those of you who have been successful with frozen... I would not have thought that both mares would not catch this year to the stallions I chose for them. I never ever thought this was going to be so difficult.
    http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com

    Join us on FACEBOOK
    Living life for the journey, not the destination.

  • #2
    Are you sure he/she strictly kept to to the tawing protocoll with this particular forzen semen ? Is it Quarterback you used ? Than I am sure that Judy has clear instructions how to thaw that stuff.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
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    • Original Poster

      #3
      Yes we used Quarter Back and Briar. Both came with very clear instructions and the vet wife even made a small joke about how precise the Briar directions were. It said to follow them religiously. I was not there when they warmed the semen but from talking to the wife and how she had a stop watch there and was giving me the step by step what she did... I imagine the directions were followed precisely. I was told that semen from both stallions was good quality with Briar at 50% and QB was 60%.
      http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com

      Join us on FACEBOOK
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      • Original Poster

        #4
        The lady from Judy's that sent the semen was fabulous and even had her own broker at the border. The semen got here very quickly once I ordered and paid for it. I would do business with them again in a heartbeat!!
        http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com

        Join us on FACEBOOK
        Living life for the journey, not the destination.

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        • #5
          Briar

          A friend of mine used Briar a few years ago. Bred two cycles and came up empty on both accounts.
          www.ChampsGuthrie.com - Brown Silver Dapple AQHA & NFQHA stallion
          www.SilverSportHorses.com - Quality Silver Warmblood X Sport Horses

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          • #6
            Oxytocin, oxytocin, oxytocin. I always follow the oxytocin protocol after every frozen insemination regardless if the vet feels it is necessary.
            I have had pretty good luck with frozen - about the same conception rates as fresh. I do most of my own inseminations and am a freak about semen thawing and handling.

            Sorry you had such bad luck. I hope things go better next time.
            www.glenhillfarm.com
            www.learntolikepink.com my journey with breast cancer
            http://www.facebook.com/pages/Petalu...2907692?ref=ts

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            • #7
              soooo sorry to hear that Faith

              I have used Frozen in the past, but MUCH prefer fresh.

              The multiple vet visits (or shipping and board) palpations, ultrasounds are just not worth the hassle for me. I like a high conception rates!! Fertility with frozen on average is significantly less...and that just isn't worth it for me. I hate having open mares and the high financial, time and labour cost of having to breed over multiple cycles.

              You'll find even the best repro vets at the bigger centers have their share of unhappy customers.

              I think the key is some of that exceptional semen. Some stallions frozen really is is almost as good as fresh....so I hear.
              www.vandenbrink.ca

              https://www.facebook.com/VandenbrinkWarmbloods?fref=ts

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              • #8
                We breed with frozen successfully. Some keys that I think are important:
                1. Vet! What is their success rate with frozen? If they can't tell you, you probably want to find a different vet. I LOVE both my regular vet and my frozen vet and they are both critical to getting positive results. The vet should have known to watch for inflammation after breeding.

                2. The Mare! It sounds like at least one of your mares wasn't cycling well this year. That happens. I like to have a fresh stallion in mind at the begining of the season in the event I decide that I don't like the mare's cycles. I had been thinking of breeding our mare Pakesa to Dacaprio as soon as I heard he was coming to the US. This spring when I didn't think she was cycling well, the decision was easy. I left the frozen for her in the tank for another year and went with a fresh stallion that I think will give us a great foal. She caught on a single breeding with fresh.

                3. Luck...as with all breeding endevers a small dose of luck is necessary. Some years you have it, other years...not so much.


                Don't give up! Breeding with frozen opens up a world of opportunities. Sometimes the best stallion for your mare is available fresh and sometimes they aren't. It's good to have options. Good luck next year!
                Linda
                Home of EM Day Dream, SPS Pakesa, & SPS Destiny
                Breeders of USDF HOY Reminisce HM and USDF Reserve HOY Legacy HM
                http://wbstallions.net/hof-mendenhall/

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                • #9
                  This was a tough year for many breeders. We waited until after May first to breed any of our mare, using the shedding cycle as the breeding barometer. If they weren't shed out, we assumed they were transitional. We had very good luck for 2008 with both fresh and frozen, and have to give great credit to our repro vet, who is very diligent with ultrasound etc. And we always follow up with oxytocin after breeding. Sometimes the fertility fairy just skips the driveway, however. Next year will go better for you, don't give up hope!
                  Anne
                  -------
                  "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by genevieveg17 View Post
                    Oxytocin, oxytocin, oxytocin. I always follow the oxytocin protocol after every frozen insemination regardless if the vet feels it is necessary.
                    Absolutely! http://www.equine-reproduction.com/a...s/oxytocin.htm

                    Around the clock every 6 hours for 3 days post ovulation will only cost about $10 of oxytocin and syringes. Semen is so expensive, I would definitely spend the extra $10.

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                    • #11
                      I am sorry you had problems. I agree with Maplebrook's post. The vet, the mare and luck can make you or break you. This year I have 6 pregnancies from frozen semen and two from fresh. If the semen is good, I have had excellent luck with frozen over many years. However, mare can have problems and sometimes they arrive without any notice and can be quite difficult to figure out.

                      The fact that your vet did not follow up himself with post breeding checks for inflammation is a small red flag to me. An experienced frozen semen vet will automatically do so and should be ready to use lavage and oxytocin as needed.

                      Hoping that your next try is more successful!
                      Mary Lou
                      http://www.homeagainfarm.com

                      https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

                      Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Home Again Farm View Post
                        The fact that your vet did not follow up himself with post breeding checks for inflammation is a small red flag to me. An experienced frozen semen vet will automatically do so and should be ready to use lavage and oxytocin as needed.
                        I think this is worth saying twice.

                        Success with frozen semen is VERY dependent on the vet. If you are not having success with semen known for having a good pregnancy rate, I would find a more experienced vet.

                        Is this Quaterback? (without the "r") I believe he has quite a lot of pregnancies with his frozen semen.

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                        • #13
                          I just want to say "I feel your pain."

                          Over the years I've tried frozen semen about 15-20 times and gotten TWO pregnancies that went to term.

                          I can't agree more about the vet, and I think that was much of the problem. But then there's that "luck" thing again....

                          For my very first foray into WB breeding I purchased 5 doses of Brentano semen. I took my mare to what was reputed to be the most advanced equine repro practice in my area. It was NOT cheap. Mare had to be boarded there 7-10 days each time.

                          Mare was a 4 yr. old maiden. One time I remember the vet telling me the semen looked REALLY good -- some of the best he'd ever seen, and he was confident of a pregnancy because he'd AI'ed 4 hrs. before ovulation. Mare never caught....I had $6000 in vet/stud fees.

                          Bought a last minute breeding (it was August by this time) to Rubino Bellisimo, who had just come into the country. Mare caught first cycle. She went on to be a fertile broodmare, who actually conceived TRIPLETS from one dose of frozen semen (Wolkenstein II)...but that's another story.

                          From then on I have dipped my toe back into the water several times, mainly because I am tempted by some of the fantastic stallions available only in frozen. I keep forgetting I must have somehow ticked off The Gods of Frozen Semen and my mares rarely get pregnant.

                          Latest attempt (this year, because apparently I never learn...) is frozen WITH a LFG and they send me 2 doses each cycle. The stallion is young and (they say) pregnancies have been acheived with his frozen. I use the protocol outlined by ER -- wait for 35+mm follicle, give HcG. Wait 24 hrs. Inseminate x1. Wait 16 hrs. Inseminate again.

                          My mobile vet, who took an extra year of ER training after vet school, and is very interested in repro, came out and did the timing work. She also did the first attempted insemination, with me assisting.

                          After that I did my own actual insemination, but I've been doing that for 5-7 years and have done very well using chilled semen. So I don't think I'm missing the cervix <g>.

                          Also, my vet loaned me all her gear (the hot water bath, AI gun, etc), so I was using the right stuff.

                          At this point I've tried 4 cycles on 3 different mares -- NO pregnancies.

                          VERY frustrating.

                          Then I talk to these people who get two pregnancies from 1 dose of Sandro Hit semen or something...and I seriously want to hurt them <G>.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I agree with the oxytocin protocol suggestions and also maybe try "Settle"? We are anxious to check our older SPS mare who had fluid issues each breeding and was in foal at least twice but lost it around implantation.

                            Biopsy revealed mild endometritis (sp?) and a IIA overal biopsy so we tried the Settle next breeding as soon as she showed heat. Oddly enough, she NEVER showed one drop of fluid (even though we did oxytocin, she always had some at some point even with that) this time... so that was a change, perhaps the Settle really is working? We shall see, we check Saturday, she's on Regumate too since 4 days post breeding. Pulled out all the stops this time in one last ditch effort. We've been trying for 2 years now. She's had 6 prior foals and is 17 and very healthy otherwise. Settle was $50 so worth a try.

                            Have you done a biopsy? So sorry for your troubles. It can be very disheartening.
                            Signature Sporthorses
                            www.signaturesporthorses.com

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                            • #15
                              I have not been lucky either so far. Of course I kind of set myself up for failure by attempting my first frozen semen experience with an older, maiden mare! My head is lumpy from all the banging against the wall!
                              I have enough semen left for one more try and I'm very tempted to skip the wonderful (but old) performance mare and use one of my regular broodies! I have about 3 days and lots of head banging left to decide!
                              Hoppe, Hoppe, Reiter...
                              Wenn er faellt dann schreit er...

                              Originally posted by mbm
                              forward is like love - you can never have enough

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                              • #16
                                FWIW we only breed post ovulation and keep it within two hours. Usually we are in the barn doing inseminations around midnight. That seems to be the mares' favorite time. Do you have a nocturnal vet?
                                Anne
                                -------
                                "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

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                                • #17
                                  This is actually the first year we have used frozen with our warmbloods, but we went with a vet that is just outstanding with anything repro. She taught at USASK for years and now does only repro. We are lucky to have her. As per her request, we brought all of the mares in to see her during their foal heats just so she can have a look, flush them if they need it (they all did!) and then plan for next visit. She is pretty adamant about seeing them in their foal heat.

                                  We caught the first mare first time with Sir Donnerhall. The second mare has never taken frozen for previous owner and she caught first time with Quaterback. Major inflammation (and I did not get any detailed thawing instructions with mine from Judy...though I would think most vets know how to do this??!) and vet flushed five times post insemination.

                                  We also bred the third mare to Quaterback and will preg check friday. There was also inflammation, but again, it was caught and she was flushed. Oxytocin was used on all the mares. Actually, I think the first mare didn't have any abnormal inflammatory response but vet still used Oxytocin and one flush post insemination. I think this is her standard protocol with frozen.

                                  Anyways, I think the vet is absolutely key. I would also make sure that if you haven't used frozen on any of these mares before, to have a thorough breeding exam done. Maybe they are not good candidates for frozen to start with, or maybe you will see something you didn't know was there ect?

                                  I am sorry about the frustration. Next year you will probably get all your mares in foal and someone else will be in your boat...hehe, this is how it seems to go!
                                  www.svhanoverians.com

                                  "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Thanks everyone.

                                    The two mares I am using were both maidens when I purchased them. They have had two successful pregnancies each and never had an infection. Both mares have only been bred live cover so far and have caught first cover each time. So I would consider them good candidates with a well know reproductive history. So no I have not done a biopsy. Anyone think I should on two mares (5 & 6yrs old) both having had two foals and caught with no problems live cover?

                                    I am leaning towards changing vets. Can anyone here recommend a vet in Ontario. Currently I am driving 2 hours to the clinic; would be nice to find one closer but I will drive further if need be.

                                    Oxytocin will be done religiously on my next attempt for sure. The 10 dollars or what ever it is... seems silly that a vet would not do it after all the other money I am spending.

                                    Briar is available fresh semen so I may just do that for 2009 and stay away from frozen. The stud fee is much more but with how much I have already spent on this pair I do not want to do it again with nothing to show for it.

                                    "not again" said they do their breedings post ovulation. Do the rest of you know if your vets do post ovulation? What is the {ideal} timing?

                                    Good luck Reiter... You need a bag of ice for that head ?? I debated about going another round this year and decided against it. I only bought two doses of each stallion thinking that would cover me. My Briar is gone and one Quarterback left.

                                    Good luck to all awaiting preg checks with frozen semen!!! And any of you with the good luck this year... could you not breed next year and give the fertility ferry a chance to get to my farm...
                                    http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com

                                    Join us on FACEBOOK
                                    Living life for the journey, not the destination.

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                                    • #19
                                      I've had over a dozen 'frozen' foals. It really depends on your vet.
                                      Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
                                      Now apparently completely invisible!

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                                      • #20
                                        We waited until after May first to breed any of our mare, using the shedding cycle as the breeding barometer. If they weren't shed out, we assumed they were transitional.
                                        You learn something new almost daily in the horse world... I was interviewing for a job which had some breeding research responsibilities, and the vets were saying 'if the mares are using energy to stay warm, they're not making eggs.' (well, not *making* eggs... but you get my drift!) I hadn't ever really thought of it that way, since we all seem to have it pounded into us it's about daylight and daylength and how artificial lighting can help etc. etc.

                                        I had a couple cycles in our very mild, sunny late April, then NOTHING until late June. I know that show season and other concerns dictate what is 'early' and what is 'late.' For me though, it was just too early before late June.

                                        A question--
                                        Originally Posted by genevieveg17
                                        Oxytocin, oxytocin, oxytocin. I always follow the oxytocin protocol after every frozen insemination regardless if the vet feels it is necessary.
                                        BUT--if your vet doesn't feel it's necessary, how do you GET the Oxytocin??

                                        I had to really campaign with my vet for P&E over his preferred method (12-15 days regumate, shot of prosti) and even then, he *ordered* the Bio-release Altrenogest instead of P&E for me. Now, that seems to be a good thing, and so far I'm happy with that... but I can't really see him just giving me an Rx drug if he doesn't feel it's indicated...

                                        OTOH, he'll give me a couple doses to have on hand for foaling... and he gives me banamine to have on hand, so it's not that he doesn't give me drugs if I ask... I guess I'm just wondering what you do if you really believe you want to do something and your vet disagrees... vet shopping isn't an option up here--ONE repro vet in a 4+ hour radius...

                                        InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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