• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Your forum sign-up is not complete, you must add an Alias/Screen Name before you can post to the forums. Your name and email is not exposed to Forum users, only the Screen Name is accessible or viewable. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.
    Complete Profile
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.
    Complete Profile

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Trak Sire to my TB Mare? breeding one for me!

Collapse
X
Collapse
  • Page of 2
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous 1 2 Next
  • #1

    Trak Sire to my TB Mare? breeding one for me!

    I am by no means an experienced breeder, and I have no skills except a good eye and a good idea of what I want!

    I want a good eventing horse with a big, brave jump. My mare, Charisma, is 17h Bay TB with 4 white socks and star, will be 15 this year. Pedigree. She is a great jumper (scopey, powerful, agile) with the confirmation and canter to jump big (I never took her there, though). She is an incredible mover, very uphill with fluid, lofty gaits. Good neck set, good shoulder, beautiful face. Basically; my mare is perfect (to me!) and my perfect foal is her, with a bigger bone, better feet and building on her strengths in movement, confirmation and temperament. A little more warmblood-y and less TB-y, but keeping the TB influence strong cause I like that.

    Here's the online album (edited to work now!)of my mare with her colt, Cedar, and him grown up too cause he's so awesome! I bred her to an ATA Trak, Feuertanzer (strong Martini *Pg*E sire), and am thrilled with my colt. Feuertanzer gave him the good foundation and heavier bone that I needed in my mare, and enhanced her already gorgeous uphill movement and sweet temperament. He scored all 8s at his inspection as a 3 month old and is a beautiful 17.1h+ blood bay today. He is exactly what I was trying to breed.

    The two ATA stallions I am trying to choose between are Incantare and Stiletto. I don't want to do frozen because of her age. I am open to other suggestions as well, but would love input on choosing the best between these two!

    I like Stiletto because he is Abdullah and Martini. Abdullah would add the bold, proven jump as he was a phenomenal show jumper, and so are many of his offspring. I also get the Martini line I want (for disposition, confirmation, big bone, movement). The only down side is the Gray- I *think* my mare has a gray factor, and she has a lot of white hairs in her coat (so does her colt). Sounds silly, I know! but, my dream horse is black/dark! Also, Stiletto is tall and my mare is tall; I'm looking not to go over 17h this time!
    I have heard that he gets great foals out of TB mares and from what I've seen, my mare would be a great cross with him.

    Incantare (Inky) is awesome because he adds the Enrico Caruso dressage line that I love, along with Martini. I also like that he is smaller and doesn't add size to his foals. I've heard he is weak in the neck set, but, my mare has such a strong confirmation I think it will be okay. I also love his color. Inky scored a 9 in jump but I'm not impressed with the videos I've seen; I have reservations about his ability to improve jump. Otherwise I LOVE him!

    Which sire do you think is better for my mare??!

    Thank you... I love reading all your input on other threads, I learn so much as I am not very experienced but love doing it! I hope, in the future, I have the means and knowledge to breed sporthorses And sorry this ended up so LONG...

    PS would love to breed to Feuertanzer again, but sadly he is no longer with us. RIP The closest pedigree to his is Tanzeln who has been a phenomenal premium sire; maybe I should take another look at him?
    16
    Stiletto
    25.00%
    4
    Incantare
    6.25%
    1
    Tanzeln
    6.25%
    1
    Other
    62.50%
    10
    Last edited by J4J; Feb. 26, 2012, 08:42 PM.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    I have no advice in terms of which stallion to use, just a small correction.
    Gray is a dominant gene, if your mare had "the gray factor" she would be gray.
    Since she is bay, she does not have the gray gene. The white hairs might be roaning.
    If you breed her to a gray stallion: if he is homozygous for the gray gene (i.e. has two gray genes) your mare would have a 100% chance of getting a gray heterozygous foal.
    If the stallion was heterozygous gray (i.e. only has one gray gene) your mare would have a 50% chance of getting a gray foal.
    How do you know if a stallion is homozygous or heterozygous ?
    If one of the stallion's parents is not gray, he is heterozygous for sure. If both the stallion's parents are gray he would have to be tested, or, if he has had foals and even one is not gray, then you know he is heterozygous.
    Hope this helps !
    http://sporthorsesnw.com/
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sport...01526589966216

    Comment

    • #3
      And since she is bay, unless she is heterozygous Aa, you won't get black. If she is heterozygous you have a 50% chance of black if the sire is homozygous for black and 25% if he is hetero.

      If one of your mare's parents was chestnut she is heterozygous for bay.

      Both parents could be bay Aa and your mare could still be 25% AA(bay homozygous) 50% Aa (bay heterozygous) or 25% aa (homozygous chestnut)


      http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_2.htm
      I wasn't always a Smurf
      Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
      "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
      The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

      Comment

      • #4
        "Incantare (Inky) is awesome because he adds the Enrico Caruso dressage line that I love, along with Martini. I also like that he is smaller and doesn't add size to his foals. I've heard he is weak in the neck set, but, my mare has such a strong confirmation I think it will be okay. I also love his color. Inky scored a 9 in jump but I'm not impressed with the videos I've seen; I have reservations about his ability to improve jump. Otherwise I LOVE him!"

        Incantare gets my vote.

        Comment

        • Original Poster
          #5
          Elfe/Carolpudm:
          Thanks for the color help... I didn't know Gray was so dominant! That makes a lot more sense. I had thought the color genes were a lot more complicated than Aa/AA/aa, like in cats and dogs where there are several gene expressions that can silence or express other color genes (like AaGgbb - A and G are both expressed with bb, or b is a secondary expression with A present, something like that). Really good to know and will help me use the Color Calculator better! I think I must have thought that from some AQHA breeders for color, with regards to cremello/perlino/palomino breeding and misunderstood what they were meaning by Gray factor.
          I will try to find pics of her dam and sire. Very possible (probable) that she's homozygous bay since Cedar's sire is chestnut and Cedar came out bay (but very red, I think maybe there is a small expression of the sire's color). In a simple punnett square, I think if she was heterozygous I'd have a 75% chance of chestnut and 25% bay, right? So more likely she's the homozygous 100% bay. Which then I have to ask- if the sire is dark bay, can she have a dark bay foal? How do the different shades of bay work?

          Fairtheewell:
          Inky has been my first choice for a couple years... thanks for pointing out that it is so evident in my post! I recently started looking at Stiletto because of my desire to have an upper level jumper, and Abdullah was amazing and throws great foals. I do really enjoy him! Do you think he is a little too fine boned to put some strength in my mare?

          Comment

          • Original Poster
            #6
            Originally posted by J4J View Post

            I will try to find pics of her dam and sire..
            ... Which then I have to ask- if the sire is dark bay, can she have a dark bay foal? How do the different shades of bay work?
            Looked it up and found both her sire and dam to be bay, according to equiline, though I can't find pics to know what color bay. Not a surprise!

            Inky is a dark bay, with enrico caruso being dark bay (Inky dam I can't find).

            Stiletto is gray but heterozygous with bay, to the best of my guessing ability.

            Comment

            • #7
              I love Mahagoni. Peron had a lot of bone.

              Comment

              • #8
                Maybe you haven't heard yet.. but E. H. Buddenbrock is now in the US and that is about as good a Trakehner that you will find. Check out the other posts on COTH regarding him.....
                Siegi Belz
                www.stalleuropa.com
                2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                Comment

                • #9
                  I too love Inky. the only downfalls w/him is , as you said, he won't put height on your mare and he has a lower neck set (FWIW that comes through the EC line IME and Tanzeln can throw it also - as well as he doesn't always throw height too). That being said, it doesn't sound like either of those are issues for you. .

                  My suggestion is call Andrew Palmer. He currently has 5 approved stallion's in his barn (including Inky) and he has rode/competed Stiletto himself as well as offspring from him and Inky. . PM me if you need his number.

                  Good luck.
                  Emerald Acres standing the ATA, Trakehner Verband, sBs, RPSI, and ISR/OLD NA Approved Stallion, Tatendrang. Visit us at our Facebook Farm Page as well!

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster
                    #10
                    Originally posted by fairtheewell View Post
                    I love Mahagoni. Peron had a lot of bone.
                    Another score for Inky! He's got the Mahagoni/Coktail mix, like Peron

                    Originally posted by acottongim View Post
                    My suggestion is call Andrew Palmer. He currently has 5 approved stallion's in his barn (including Inky) and he has rode/competed Stiletto himself as well as offspring from him and Inky. . PM me if you need his number.

                    Good luck.
                    Thank you thank you! So funny- I realized that he would really be a great person to ask, I emailed him this afternoon! I will PM you if he doesn't get back to me. You rock!

                    Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                    Maybe you haven't heard yet.. but E. H. Buddenbrock is now in the US and that is about as good a Trakehner that you will find. Check out the other posts on COTH regarding him.....
                    I just saw! completely awesome. He is spectacular! It sounds cheesey, but I really want to support the ATA and American Bred Sporthorses. However, I do wonder how is breeding contract is going to go... there are a few horses I'd make an exception for (I am a huge le tot de semilly lover, as well as balou du rouet, and a few more)

                    Thanks everyone I really appreciate the input!

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      is it just me, the link doesn't work.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster
                        #12
                        Originally posted by Adagio View Post
                        is it just me, the link doesn't work.
                        which link? if it's the album of my mare, here it is again:
                        https://picasaweb.google.com/GinaMnM...eat=directlink

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Now that the link works, I've taken a good look at your girl, and she's a very nice mare. I agree about adding some bone, her feet look fine in the pictures but maybe I'm missing something. In my (not that is should matter opinion) I would really look for a stallion with a strong top line esp. the loin connection as this is were I feel your mare need improving, and maybe a stallion with good type as the Feuertanzer foal did not get your mare beautiful head, looks like he got the Condus head. I had two Condus daughters and it take a couple of generation to typey them up. Best of luck stallion shopping.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster
                            #14
                            Originally posted by aquafarms View Post
                            Now that the link works, I've taken a good look at your girl, and she's a very nice mare. I agree about adding some bone, her feet look fine in the pictures but maybe I'm missing something. In my (not that is should matter opinion) I would really look for a stallion with a strong top line esp. the loin connection as this is were I feel your mare need improving, and maybe a stallion with good type as the Feuertanzer foal did not get your mare beautiful head, looks like he got the Condus head. I had two Condus daughters and it take a couple of generation to typey them up. Best of luck stallion shopping.
                            Thanks for the feedback, Joe! You have a great eye and I totally appreciate your input

                            Yes, her feet are horrible and she is light in the bone. I wish I had some better confirmation shots of her, but, that's what I could dig out from my candid shots. I'm pretty keen on her! Cedar (colt) has a nicer head then comes off in these pictures, it is much more refined and "pretty" than it looks. I should find a better pic... he even has a slight dish like hers (less so, though). Although, it is HUGE lol. I can't believe he is so giant sometimes!

                            AND... I have to say... it is really mixed things up for me now that you have Buddenbrock I just love his talent and he's so beautiful. I am wondering if I should breed to him this year and Inky next year and keep the best one for myself :P hehe! What are your thoughts on B for her?

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster
                              #15
                              Here's a confirmation shot of Charisma (my mare) as a 3 year old, when I got her:

                              https://picasaweb.google.com/GinaMnM...23015118294674

                              Comment

                              • #16
                                Tanzeln as a sire

                                To clarify Anissa's comments below - Tanzeln has approx. 50 offspring (the oldest group is just coming 6) and so far what we see is that his boys are generally big - 16h-17h, especially the xx and ox crosses. The size for the girls may ??? come more from the mare line (many of his fillies are the mare's first foal so it's hard to tell) but he has daughters that range from 15.2 to 17h - similar to other stallions I'm guessing.

                                Some have naturally great necks, others need exercise to develop it. All are nicely uphill. He does pass on his excellent conformation, strong loin and good legs. No stallion is perfect for every mare and I like mares best for him that have good hips.

                                His offspring love to jump and most are really balanced and good at it in addition to being exceptionally brave and easy to handle. We are hearing great things from all of the trainers that have dealt with them.

                                He nearly always improves the head - his babies are usually very typey and the mature offspring we have seen have gaits ranging from very good to excellent - especially good walks and canters.

                                Buddenbrock is obviously great but I think Incantare and Stiletto are wonderful stallions too. Tanz and Stiletto are opposite each other in the barn at Valhalla and I know they both have great temperaments too - if you're looking for American-bred, they are all three good choices for dressage, eventing or jumping prospects.

                                Have fun in your planning and best of luck for a fabulous foal.

                                Comment

                                • #17
                                  If you have the chance to breed to B...I would. It would be a good investment in any case. If you want bays..I'd stick to the bays.. Otherwise, follow your gut. Definitely look for improvement in the loin and a longer hip.

                                  Comment

                                  • #18
                                    What about Grafenstolz?
                                    Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
                                    " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
                                    Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster
                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by crtrak View Post
                                      To clarify Anissa's comments below - Tanzeln has approx. 50 offspring (the oldest group is just coming 6) ...
                                      He is not closely bred to Feuertanzer.. oops! Just the Pregelstrend damsire. What was I looking at I wonder? He is very nice none-the-less and I'm happy to hear his foals are doing so well! I looked at him while I was following Enrico Caruso lines and was very impressed with him movement. He's beautiful!! There are so many amazing stallions it is impossible for me to choose the "perfect" one for me/my mare

                                      BTW- Thanks for keeping the ATA website updated for him; it's so nice to have progeny information right there on the website! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it And I'm looking forward to the ATA website overhaul, I think it's going to look great!

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster
                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by EquineLVR View Post
                                        What about Grafenstolz?
                                        I haven't looked at him before! I'll do that now, it sounds more fun than the work I'm supposed to be doing

                                        I see you live in Castle Rock.. I just moved to Greeley and don't know hardly anything about the horse world up here, can I PM you for some recommendations?

                                        Comment

                                        Previous 1 2 Next
                                        Working...
                                        X