• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

equine nutrition- why are recommendations so inconsistent???

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • equine nutrition- why are recommendations so inconsistent???

    OK. I am getting very confused. In the young horse nutrition area especially. I had a scare last week with my yearling filly / swollen ankles were very much pointing to physitis. (Though never officially diagnosed) My vet told me to take her off her grain. Her ankles have returned to normal. I had been feeding her LESS than 3#/day of TC growth, and now she is getting half of that. I've been pouring over the nutrition threads here and it seems most feed ration balancers, but there are some who feed no grain at all. I don't understand the inconsistency. I don't want to starve my baby but I'm scared to death for her ankles to blow back up. My vet says no ration balancer- just hay and minerals and a handful of TC growth. We do NOT have Progressive out here as far as I know. Is there a book on this subject? Does the protein in hay vary that much? I understand our local hay is high in protein but have not had it tested.
    My minerals (designed for this area) are high in calcium and I have also heard that high levels of calcium can contribute to physitis. Do I take her off the minerals? Feed her a generic trace mineral?
    Help please oh knowledgeable coth breeders

  • #2
    Oh, good grief, we can't even agree what people should be eating, is it really suprising that equine nutrition isn't cut & dry? Personally, I am a minimalist and would go with forage & vitamin/mineral supplement as required based on deficiencies in your area.
    Jigga:
    Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

    Comment


    • #3
      Because depending on the area you live it's hard to know what is best for individuals. As well as horse's are all individual in what they need and can't or can tolerate. Simple is best. Forage with vit and min supp as above poster said and feed according to needs. I seem to have very easy keepers who are doing fine on that but I add other things to the mix as needed.

      Terri
      COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

      "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

      Comment


      • #4
        Do you have an independant equine nutritionist in your area you can consult? Maybe call your closest major University vet center and ask for recommendations?

        We are lucky in this area to have a Phd who is wonderful and does seminars and private consultations, it's worth your while IMO especially if you are breeding. In my experience vets have little knowledge of nutrition past the basics unless they have a special interest and have studied it specifically. Requirements also vary by location so I don't know that I would depend on random internet threads (no matter who knowledgeable the individuals are).
        On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

        Comment


        • #5
          IMO, A balanced ration should be the goal, not a nutritionally deficient or starvation diet. That's called malnutrition. Blaming protein and reducing nutrition in growing youngsters is old school veterinary advice, and not the current thinking among nutritionists per my experience.
          Youngsters need adequate amounts of high quality protein, and those needs are very high and not typically met in most hay.
          I believe some of the old school advice came about because historically owners typically fed sweet feed mixes in addition to hay, and in large quantities, all that sugar maybe caused problems, plus those rations weren't balanced either.. There are now many commercially prepared and balanced feeds out there for a variety of situations, that a term like "grain" is meaningless and cannot be used generically. Instead, it is more useful to think of what you feed in addition to forage as supplements, the goal being to meet the growing youngsters needs to develop normally. I cannot understand the thinking behind promoting a nutritionally deficient diet in any instance, but I know vets still advise this when youngsters experience developmental problems. Perhaps they just figure owners typically overfeed, and that's their stock answer. As has been pointed out, nutrition is a specialty not often pursued by vet students.
          I can understand your confusion! There is no real answer other than to go about having your hay tested and going from there. Every region is different, even the water sources are different and so on. And vets aren't likely to sit down with a calculator and figure out whether or not what is being fed is balanced, so they are just guessing, but that's what needs to done. Nutritionists do that. Advice is often inconsistent, but the nutritional standards aren't. The National Research Council publishes The Nutrient Requirements of Horses (6th revised edition is current), a complicated text primarily for professionals, but if you're a whiz with math equations....
          Is there any way to confirm the diagnosis of physitis? There may be other causes of physitis besides nutrition, but it's not something (knock on wood) I've experienced.
          In any case, best wishes.
          www.forwardfarms.com.
          Follow us on Facebook:
          http://www.facebook.com/pages/Forwar...s/192796641203

          Comment


          • #6
            A book reecomendation for you

            Try my book
            The Horse Nutrition Handbook;
            http://www.foxdenequine.com/book.htm

            Then if you are still confused contact me.

            MW
            Melyni (PhD) PAS, Dipl. ACAN.
            Sign up for the Equine nutrition enewsletter on www.foxdenequine.com
            New edition of book is out:
            Horse Nutrition Handbook.

            www.knabstruppers4usa.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Melyni View Post
              Try my book
              The Horse Nutrition Handbook;
              http://www.foxdenequine.com/book.htm

              Then if you are still confused contact me.

              MW
              This.
              Practice! Patience! Persistence!
              http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
              https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

              Comment


              • #8
                Because often we are getting our nutrition info. from vets, and they aren't trained in nutrition. Many vets still reccomend pulling youngsters w/physitis or other DOD off all concentrates and putting them on only grass hay. This is old, old, old info. that is no longer true. It has been proven that the "starvation" model isn't good for these types of problems. Horses with growth issues need the proper balance of vitamins/minerals and proteins to grow correctly. Youngsters with these issues need a ration balancer and minerals that are specific to the forage they are receiving. Remember, growth issues are only partly diet/management. Genetics still play a role.

                Thats my 0.02 cents worth
                Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
                https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
                  Because often we are getting our nutrition info. from vets, and they aren't trained in nutrition. Many vets still reccomend pulling youngsters w/physitis or other DOD off all concentrates and putting them on only grass hay. This is old, old, old info. that is no longer true. It has been proven that the "starvation" model isn't good for these types of problems. Horses with growth issues need the proper balance of vitamins/minerals and proteins to grow correctly. Youngsters with these issues need a ration balancer and minerals that are specific to the forage they are receiving. Remember, growth issues are only partly diet/management. Genetics still play a role.

                  Thats my 0.02 cents worth
                  This. Most vets only know the old starvation methods when dealing with DOD in horses. They are not up on the latest research. My biggest disaster in breeding was long ago when I first started out and resulted from the starvation school of equine nutrition. That case prompted me to consult an equine nutritionist who got me started on ration balancers.
                  Mary Lou
                  http://www.homeagainfarm.com

                  https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

                  Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Indy-Lou, Hillside, and Home Again - you guys are so on target!!! There's nothing else to be said except read those posts and act accordingly.....

                    That's my opinion!
                    Siegi Belz
                    www.stalleuropa.com
                    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You really need to analyze your hay and ration and figure out what you are missing or have too much of. There are on line courses you can take, books you can, nutritionists you can hire, and even an online program you can subscribe to. A ration balancer is not guaranteed to balance anything. Against my hay, it wasn't adequate.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I can't tell you the number of times I've experienced that competent, licensed DVMs have failed to note the difference between percentage of protein in feeds and actual grams of protein calculated by weight of feed stuffs in a ration. It seems the only thing they heard in class was percentage, which is absolutely meaningless unless calculated out by weight to grams. I've had otherwise competent vets tell me the following things: "5% protein is ideal", and, "I would think that the hay would give them everything they need" (this without any data as to hay analysis as a basis for making this statement) and, (in relation to a ration balancer) "Oh 30% protein is way too much!" I'm sorry to add that at least one or more of these comments came from a University teaching hospital with students present. I offer this as further evidence that vet schools do not always highlight nutrition to their students, and that they can graduate and become licensed as competent DVMs in many realms, but not necessarily be competent in nutrition.
                        Last edited by Indy-lou; Feb. 25, 2012, 10:30 PM.
                        www.forwardfarms.com.
                        Follow us on Facebook:
                        http://www.facebook.com/pages/Forwar...s/192796641203

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Indy-lou View Post
                          I can't tell you the number of times I've experienced that competent, licensed DVMs have failed to note the difference between percentage of protein in feeds and actual grams of protein calculated by weight of feed stuffs in a ration. It seems the only thing they heard in class was percentage, which is absolutely meaningless unless calculated out by weight to grams. I've had otherwise competent vets tell me the following things: "5% protein is ideal", and, "I would think that the hay would give them everything they need" (this without any data as to hay analysis as a basis for making this statement) and, (in relation to a ration balancer) "Oh 30% protein is way too much!" I'm sorry to add that at least one or more of these comments came from a University teaching hospital with students present. I offer this as further evidence that vet schools do not always highlight nutrition to their

                          students, and that they can graduate and become licensed as competent DVMs in many realms, but not necessarily be competent in nutrition.
                          I had the same discussion with my own vet. It took sitting down in my tack room with a calculator to help him understand. Once he understood, he was sold.
                          Mary Lou
                          http://www.homeagainfarm.com

                          https://www.facebook.com/HomeAgainFarmHanoverians

                          Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Indy-lou View Post
                            I offer this as further evidence that vet schools do not always highlight nutrition to their students, and that they can graduate and become licensed as competent DVMs in many realms, but not necessarily be competent in nutrition.
                            A vet is simply a general practitioner, just like your family doctor, or maybe like a ER doctor in some cases. Unless they become board certified in something, or obtain a secondary Phd, their knowledge on many things is limited. I learned many lessons dealing with a couple of my horses over the past decade - both were misdiagnosed and mis-treated by multiple vets. I used to get frustrated about it as well as angry, but what I realized is that other than every day issues and emergencies, one really should consult a specialist. I wish more vets realized their own limitations and did more referrals, just like a human doctor would and should.
                            On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't think starvation is the key at all. Plus there are different protein choices out there to be chosen from. It's just not black and White. A protein number doesn't scare me in percentage but it does in source.

                              I keep finding over and over protein balancers too much for the horses I'm raising. Does not mean I hate them and please don't take my advice because I'm not a nutritionist. Balancers are small amounts you can mix with straights or other feeds. Bagged feed needs to be fed in too high amounts to get the vit and min content. I'm sure some horse's out there can handle that feeding.

                              And then I've watched over the years here in Ireland how people feed and the results as those horses grow. Let's just say you show an Irishman the price of a balancer and he'll look at you as if you have 3 heads! Most are raised on pasture, haylage when needed, "meal", when needed but the vits and mins they need. They are not being starved by any means. Most are like mine, keeping the weight off is a bigger battle.

                              Let's just say if I had a dime for every thread or experience of people who have horse's on a dry lot, soaked hay, on Peroglide, and fighting lami while being fed a balancer, I'd be a rich girl. When I left the track 10 years ago horse's were still being fed oats, barley, corn and a vit and min supp plus a few other little things(no not drugs) that were not balancers. They were raised well and performed at the highest levels. Most of the protein was coming from alfalfa.

                              Anyway, its a minefield for sure and agree vets are not a good source of info. Anyway good luck and there has been good advice here.

                              Terri
                              COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                              "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Definitely starvation is not the route and usually results in more problems. Nutritional balance is key. The book suggested above teaches you what elements are needed and how to balance the diet.
                                Practice! Patience! Persistence!
                                http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
                                https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses/

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Short answer...because there are many different feeding methods that work.
                                  IF YOU THINK YOUR BRAIN IS NOT WORTH PROTECTING WITH A HELMET, YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT!

                                  Damrock Farm

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Another thing to consider...what is your filly's turn out situation? The more turn out the better for growing horses. If (considering your location) she is in a stall the majority of the time, she is more likely to be "stocked up". Just food for thought...
                                    Fox Haven Farm, Inc.
                                    Home of 2002 JC Registered stallion Artrageous

                                    Artrageous has his own Facebook page!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Equilibrium, do you happen to know the average protein and lysine % of typical hays/grasses in your area?
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Yes JB my haylage is between 9-12% protein. They hay is running around 7%. I believe that's what it was, can't remember now. Most people here keep their youngsters on haylage and do not fuss so much with large amounts of hard feed. It cuts down on hard feed needs. But the vits and mins are what I have to balance. I just have decided to spend money on the best forage I can buy and add the rest as needed. I'm not saying my way is best but I had to do something when the balancers were causing more damage.

                                        And while not starving horses, if I don't have mine slightly on the lean side when the grass starts to come I fight the bulge all year and with 10 acres and 5 horses I have to have a sacrifice paddock. We have a big 40 acre cattle field next to us and a girl here says wouldn't it be great if the horses lived on that. Well mine would be dead with grazing on purpose grown cattle fields! She doesn't get it. Anyway, I'm rambling sorry.

                                        Terri
                                        COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                                        "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X