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"Crystal ball" advertising

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  • "Crystal ball" advertising

    I just saw a 3 month old foal described as having "extreme hunter talent". Can someone explain how a breeder can make a prediction like that regarding a young foal?

  • #2
    Pedigree and past performance of said pedigree.
    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

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    • Original Poster

      #3
      Originally posted by VirginiaBred View Post
      Pedigree and past performance of said pedigree.
      That would indicated POTENTIAL. There is a world of difference between POTENTIAL and TALENT.

      Comment


      • #4
        Depends on how much you know about the pedigree. Potential would go more with an unproven line.
        Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

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        • #5
          I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.
          Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
          Now apparently completely invisible!

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tiki
            I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.
            I agree with you on that, 100%.
            Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

            Comment


            • #7
              I'd never thought of "10 mover" as related to WB inspections. It is a very commonly used term in the hunters to denote hack winning movement. I'll have to pay better attention to who is using the term in the future.
              Barbara
              http://www.westfieldfarm.com

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              • Original Poster

                #8
                Originally posted by VirginiaBred View Post
                Depends on how much you know about the pedigree. Potential would go more with an unproven line.
                Foal is by a WB Grand Prix dressage stallion out of a WB mare.

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                  I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.
                  LOL, yep - I know what you mean!

                  Whenever I see a horse advertised as a "10" mover, I wonder - "say's who?"
                  Last edited by DownYonder; Jul. 16, 2008, 03:18 PM. Reason: corrected a typo

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tiki View Post
                    I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.
                    (covers mouth with hands)
                    "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by au_panda View Post
                      I'd never thought of "10 mover" as related to WB inspections. It is a very commonly used term in the hunters to denote hack winning movement. I'll have to pay better attention to who is using the term in the future.
                      An A-show hack winning Hunter, if shown at a WB inspection with that movement, will likely not score well in that department because it's too "flat". So no, not at all the same.
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                      • #12
                        I agree with VABred, but only when it comes to pony hunters, which is one of the most specialized disciplines out there that doesn't require a ton of athletic "talent" for decent success. "Type" goes a long way in pony hunters -- and it doesn't hurt that the gene pool is, comparatively, a lot smaller, too.

                        But for a horse foal to find decent success in hunters, I don't think there's a pedigree out there that can guarentee it the way certain pony hunter pedigrees practically can. Too many variables, unless you're talking 3' or under divisions at not-necessarily-top shows. With the pony foals, you barely have to look at them, so true do some lines breed (and crossbreed).

                        But name me a horse bloodline that breeds so true that you can sell the baby as a top (rated/national/etc.) prospect before it has jumped a fence? Same with jumpers or dressage, I suspect, although I admit that there may be some "hot" horse stallions (and mares) out there that can get babies sold on that kind of "promise."

                        But then once those foals get u/s, you have to question whether it was the pedigree or the purse that produced the performance.

                        Pony hunters, western pleasure horses, park horses: straightforward physical disciplines where type is paramount and there's a ton of history to identify what wins. 3'6"-plus hunters, jumpers and upper level dressage or event horses: way too many variables. And even movement, in the foal, isn't accurately depicted at a young age. Hunters also have a specifc type of carriage. I've seen ponies (got a two-year-old like this) that go along long and low, and I've seen a ton of western pleasure yearlings do so, too. But I haven't seen that easy, efficient hunter carriage in horse foals--they all seem to go more "upheaded" at that age, so how can you tell if the carriage will be there, much less the movement? (I've always been critical of judging any movement at a young age--how can a horse or pony possibly move the way it will when it's going under saddle when its proportions are way off from what they'll be at maturity--including butt height, leg to body, neck length to back length, and so on??? Biggest crock I see in foal inspections--judging their movement...and I haven't even mentioned the falsehoods of movement due to the "tail up, head up," chase 'em around conditions! Like puppies and kittens are always cute; foals always move fancy when their tails are over their backs.)
                        Sportponies Unlimited
                        Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pwynnnorman View Post
                          But name me a horse bloodline that breeds so true that you can sell the baby as a top (rated/national/etc.) prospect before it has jumped a fence? Same with jumpers or dressage, I suspect, although I admit that there may be some "hot" horse stallions (and mares) out there that can get babies sold on that kind of "promise."
                          When it comes to Jumpers and Dressage, I think you can "guarantee" some ability to the same extent you can with the pony lines. There's a good thread on SHB right now which talks about the Cor de line (and Holsteiners in general) just about guaranteeing a horse who can jump the snot out of anything you point it at. Several other lines too. Dressage is probably a bit trickier, since the mentality it take to reach the very top levels is one of a kind.

                          Hunters - yeah, very few where you can even begin to just about guarantee the talent. I don't even know if Popeye K has proven to be incredibly reliable in that department.

                          The real issue though isn't the horses themselves, but the fact that Hunter folks have cared so little for so long about pedigree that there simply isn't the history behind any given horse to be able to make an assumption. I don't know why the pony breeders got so big into parental history, but because they did, and because the WB breeders always have been, there is precedence for being able to say "cross Him and Her and you're all but guaranteed to have a successful X-discipline foal".
                          ______________________________
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'm also amazed at the number of people who state that their foals are "10" movers when I was at the inspection and saw them get 7's or 8's.
                            You better hope a top hunter prospect foal doesn't get a 10 at a warmblood inspection. Otherwise you probably have a crappy hunter prospect!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by pwynnnorman
                              I agree with VABred, but only when it comes to pony hunters, which is one of the most specialized disciplines out there that doesn't require a ton of athletic "talent" for decent success. "Type" goes a long way in pony hunters -- and it doesn't hurt that the gene pool is, comparatively, a lot smaller, too.

                              But for a horse foal to find decent success in hunters, I don't think there's a pedigree out there that can guarentee it the way certain pony hunter pedigrees practically can. Too many variables, unless you're talking 3' or under divisions at not-necessarily-top shows.
                              .........but only when it comes to pony hunters, which is one of the most specialized disciplines out there that doesn't require a ton of athletic "talent" for decent success.

                              Maybe not where you are, but in Virginia and at the top levels, athletic talent is a requirement. There are tons of ponies at the average level you've spent time describing, but when the cream rises to the top, many equations make up the winner, and athleticism is among the ingredients. The "gene pool" of the generations of proven may be small, but with careful breeding, can be increased.

                              I know of quite a few more modern stallions that have sired lovely performance offspring (A Fine Romance, Aristos B, Mandan, Diskus to name a few) and I'm leaving out so many.

                              Point is, if you have the history or learn the history, you can go to pedigrees and do it again.

                              Now back to the Original Poster's statement...............
                              Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by VirginiaBred View Post
                                .........but only when it comes to pony hunters, which is one of the most specialized disciplines out there that doesn't require a ton of athletic "talent" for decent success.

                                Maybe not where you are, but in Virginia and at the top levels, athletic talent is a requirement. There are tons of ponies at the average level you've spent time describing, but when the cream rises to the top, many equations make up the winner, and athleticism is among the ingredients. The "gene pool" of the generations of proven may be small, but with careful breeding, can be increased.

                                I know of quite a few more modern stallions that have sired lovely performance offspring (A Fine Romance, Aristos B, Mandan, Diskus to name a few) and I'm leaving out so many.

                                Point is, if you have the history or learn the history, you can go to pedigrees and do it again.
                                I believe PWynn was probably suggesting that just about any sound horse can jump up to about 3 feet. That does not mean they can do it in A-show winning form. But there is a big difference between asking a pony to jump 8 3 foot fences and asking the same pony to jump around at Rolex.

                                If I did not believe in the importance of bloodlines in predicting future performance aptitude, I would not breed. But I do not think there are any guarantees -- in any discipline -- and I have seen plenty of gorgeous, bred -to-the-nines horses jump like deer and end up complete washouts when they actually are started over fences. And if that were not so, a LOT more succesful hunters would be coming out of the HB division.
                                Roseknoll Sporthorses
                                www.roseknoll.net

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  It is the same thing with all these dressage breeders who claim FEI talent or FEI gaits or the breeders who claim the foal is suitable for jumpers because one day the foal jumped out of his pasture.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by tri
                                    It is the same thing with all these dressage breeders who claim FEI talent or FEI gaits or the breeders who claim the foal is suitable for jumpers because one day the foal jumped out of his pasture.



                                    you owe me a keyboard!!!!!!!!
                                    Randee Beckman ~Otteridge Farm, LLC (http://on.fb.me/1iJEqvR)~ Marketing Manager - The Clothes Horse & Jennifer Oliver Equine Insurance Specialist

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I have never had one of my foals jump out of a pasture. Does that mean they won't win the Olympics? I have had them jumping ring jumps while mom was ridden, so maybe they just don't like cross country.

                                      I think if you have siblings that have talent for that discipline, a breeder can compare foals and have a pretty good idea about their talents from a fairly young age. You will see a range, but bloodline that are producing well, are going to give you pretty consistent results.

                                      The Europeans are jumping foals now to predict jumping ability.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by tri View Post
                                        It is the same thing with all these dressage breeders who claim FEI talent or FEI gaits or the breeders who claim the foal is suitable for jumpers because one day the foal jumped out of his pasture.
                                        I agree completely.
                                        Roseknoll Sporthorses
                                        www.roseknoll.net

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