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Have you dealt with this: stallion gets "excited" while being schooled?

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  • Have you dealt with this: stallion gets "excited" while being schooled?

    I am just totally stumped by this and don't know what the heck to do, except send him away, which I really, really don't want to do!

    With each cycle of two particular mares (who cycle together), Kevlar has been getting worse and worse. I can manage the fence-running (no, not walking: running, hour after hour after hour) by limiting his turnout, but I can't figure out how to prevent his viagra-on-speed moments under saddle! I can't even figure out how the heck he keeps it up like that!

    When those two mares are in season, he'll be a little fussier in the cross-ties, but not bad or disobedient. However, if one is in the barn while he's in cross ties, he gets arduous--toward anyone, not just the mare. I am one hard, mean handler when it comes to that kind of misbehavior, but beating up on him doesn't prevent it the next time (so I've takent to avoiding having either of those mares in the barn when he's being worked).

    Now I've started avoiding having those mares in sight while he's being worked--and I really don't like having to do that and, today, it looks like even that didn't work. Yesterday, he lawn-darted his rider yet again (that makes it the third mare-cycle in a row that he's tossed her), so today, I kept those mares out of sight. But he still did the same thing: worked fine for about 15-20 minutes (plus was longed for 15 minutes before she got on); then up goes his tail, up goes his head, he starts to mince around and then he explodes. His rider managed to ride it out today, including our customary reprimands of being forced to gallop strongly forward (but she didn't have a whip--I don't think she's comfortable with that).

    The thing is, they were at it (him leaping about, her riding it out, growling at him and sending him forward) for quite some time...and throughout, he never lost his erection! I...do...not...understand!!!! How can he DO that???
    Last edited by pwynnnorman; Jul. 8, 2008, 03:10 PM. Reason: Add question mark.
    Sportponies Unlimited
    Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

  • #2
    It sounds to me like there is no point in riding him. Everybody is miserable, and somebody is going to get hurt. Riding is supposed to be fun.

    Comment


    • #3
      Testosterone - wonderful stuff It sounds as though he isn't getting enough exercise and is frustrated. He might be one (a bit like my guy) who needs either 24/7 turnout or being worked at least 5 days a week with hard work. My guy doesn't run the fences, but he did when he was on limited turnout, AND he was difficult to handle and seemed to be focussed almost exclusively on sex. Now, he has a gelding buddy and is out 24/7 with access to a stall whenever he wants and he is a sweetheart.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thing is, I think (pretty sure), that he's only like this when those two mares are in season--like, once every three weeks, y'know?

        It's frustrating!
        Sportponies Unlimited
        Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

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        • #5
          Test the theory by getting the mares off the property for a few weeks?

          Jennifer
          Third Charm Event Team

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pwynnnorman View Post
            Thing is, I think (pretty sure), that he's only like this when those two mares are in season--like, once every three weeks, y'know?

            It's frustrating!
            Sounds like he's doing what stallions do when mares are in heat - he's trying to breed them. I'm not a stallion expert so I have little advice other than for you to accept that it's normal for him to be excited when there are horses in heat right in front of him.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by ThirdCharm View Post
              Test the theory by getting the mares off the property for a few weeks?

              Jennifer
              I was thinking of doing that, but first, I'm taking HIM somewhere else (in the past, when he's been boarded elsewhere, he's been fine) tomorrow. Putting a big-guy with long legs on him--but I don't expect this problem. Even when his usual rider takes him away from home, he doesn't do this (get a hard-on and throw her, that is--he's still thrown her on occasion, but that's just Kev being Kev, not Kev being Mr. Studly!).

              Anyway, it just so happens that both of the "hotties" will be getting August off, so they'll go over to where I pasture board several ponies and I'll bring the pregnant mares home in their place (BUT I still have yet a third mare at home who will stay in full work). I hope that works, but I still don't get that one little (well, not so little!) physical thing:

              How does he maintain an erection while he's galloping around? I mean, the thing is practically banging up against his rider's HEELS. Surely, that's uncomfortable. I mean, I've seen stallions chase reluctant mares, fully prepared, but I have never seen one, first, GET a hard on while working (and I make my rider keep him working on stuff that occupies his mind, not just going around the rail), and second, KEEP a hard on while leaping and karooming around (and getting hollared at, etc., etc.).

              I mean, doesn't he need to be thinking about sex (or getting a noseful of pheromones or something) to keep his erection? Wouldn't you think he'd be too distracted u/s, especially when he's being reprimanded and made to gallop full out (and do tight circles, etc., etc.)?
              Sportponies Unlimited
              Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

              Comment


              • #8
                I mean, doesn't he need to be thinking about sex (or getting a noseful of pheromones or something) to keep his erection? Wouldn't you think he'd be too distracted u/s, especially when he's being reprimanded and made to gallop full out (and do tight circles, etc., etc.)?
                He may be the first male in history who can multi-task Another thing I wondered is if the rider has been handling the mares who are in heat and then riding the stallion. I swear that my stallion can smell a mare in heat on my clothes and I have to wash my hands thoroughly after handling an in season mare before doing anything with the stallion.

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Oh my GOSH!!! YES! Yes, we always do the mares first, Kev last!

                  By golly, do you suppose that's it? Wow, Secretariat2! We can't test it this cycle (not with those mares) because they'll be going out by the time my rider returns next week (and I sure ain't gonna press the issue--I'll just do my usual, no-pressure farting around on him until she gets back!). But the third mare should be coming in soon, so maybe we'll at least see what happens if we do Kev before her. Worth a shot.

                  THANKS!!!
                  Sportponies Unlimited
                  Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Vics Vapour rub?

                    (on his nose!)
                    www.juniperridgeranch.us
                    Visit us on Facebook!

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                    • #11
                      I have a couple of ideas (hopefully nobody flames me!)
                      Am assuming that he is stallion-worthy so that's why he is still fully equipped. Would estrogen be a possibility without messing him up totally? I honestly am NOT sure if it is even done in horses, but thought I'd throw it out there.
                      The other thing that I've heard of used in racing is a ring that fits over the penis and causes discomfort if the colt starts playng with itself; where that would worry me is if he is being pointed at a breeding career, would that create any negative effects down the road?
                      Vicks is pretty effective short term (ie for a ride), less so for turnout.
                      Dee
                      Founder of the I LOFF my worrywart TB clique!
                      Official member of the "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique
                      http://wilddiamondintherough.blogspot.ca/

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                      • #12
                        Wow Wynn. That sounds like a nightmare for you, your stallion and his riders. I have never had any such thing happen. My boys are out next to the "women" and many in heat. Traveller is ridden and is all business even with the mares coming up to his pasture with their tails in the air and peeing with much flair. Hummm........I am thinking..........maybe MORE exposure to mares? I just dont know what to suggest.
                        Both of my boys have mares coming and going all the time. The mares are teased to Hootie because he is out during the day and Traveller is in. But Traveller stands next to mares and they do come in heat (with babies by their side).

                        Has your guy been used as a breeding stallion? Did you mention how old he is?
                        Hootie is out all day next to a pasture of mares (double fenced) and loves to see them and does run about and show off on occasion. The only stallion I knew that ran the fence line and lost weight during breeding season was Thalias Corsair. He ran and ran. But then I think little Country Roads was sticking his tongue out at him over the fences!!! LOL
                        Sandy
                        www.sugarbrook.com
                        hunter/jumper ponies

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Unfortunately, yes...I have worked with stallions that have exactly the issues the OP is describing. I'm assuming the stallion in question is young. The idea when working with a stallion that has "issues" is to try and get the best ride and training possible out of a situation and obviously, if he's distracted, you're not getting that. Remove him, or the mares from the situation. Setting him up for failure is not productive and if you know he's going to have issues (i.e., be an idiot) when you bring him out, do work that won't result in disaster. So, if he comes out and it's going to be one of those days, work him without riding him. Lunge him, free jump him, etc, but don't get on him. If he's quiet and working without screaming and an erection, time to stop. If he's acting like a lunatic, continue working until you reach a good point. By putting a rider on him in those situations, you're setting everyone up for a fight and realistically, the possibility of someone getting hurt! And, what are you accomplishing? He's not focused on what is being asked of him, so you're not gaining ground.

                          It is more an age related thing. Once they're able to put together that working and being ridden with an erection just isn't much fun and they're not getting to breed when in those situations, you'll find the incidences will happen less frequently. Time and patience will be your friend. I'd almost be willing to bet the stallion in question is under 5 <smile>. Am I right, Wynn?

                          Completely ignore the penis and deal with the behavior. Many will pull out a riding crop or other "items" and will hit the penis. It truly does not have a mind of its own. Deal with the stallion's behavior and if he's not focused on the rider/handler, get his attention back. Work, work, work.

                          Originally posted by DeeThbd View Post
                          Would estrogen be a possibility without messing him up totally? I honestly am NOT sure if it is even done in horses, but thought I'd throw it out there.
                          It is done, but can have a deleterious impact on reproduction. Also, one has to consider whether or not one would like to breed to a stallion that has been hormonally manipulated in order to make him manageable?

                          The other thing that I've heard of used in racing is a ring that fits over the penis and causes discomfort if the colt starts playng with itself; where that would worry me is if he is being pointed at a breeding career, would that create any negative effects down the road?
                          It's barbaric. If the stallion is so unmanageable that one has to resort to chemical manipulation or devices that create pain and discomfort, the animal should be gelded.

                          Vicks is pretty effective short term (ie for a ride), less so for turnout.
                          While Vicks and other products that are used to "disguise" estrus mares work for stallions that aren't raging lunatics when mares are around, they are pretty much useless on stallions such as the one in this thread.

                          I certainly empathize, but having been there and done that, I can assure you that if you can hold out, continue training and working him, keep him focused on the job at hand, it "will" get better with time. With the stallions we've worked with that were similar in this behavior, on days that they were...multi-tasking, we just worked on ground work, in hand work, lunging, etc.

                          Good luck!

                          Kathy St.Martin
                          Equine Reproduction Short Courses
                          http://www.equine-reproduction.com
                          Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
                          Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity

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                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Setting him up for failure is not productive and if you know he's going to have issues (i.e., be an idiot) when you bring him out, do work that won't result in disaster. So, if he comes out and it's going to be one of those days, work him without riding him. Lunge him, free jump him, etc, but don't get on him.
                            Thank you, Kathy. I'm so glad you put it this way. I was debating on this, but kept wondering if I'd be doing a no-no by "giving in" to it all. But the way you put it makes a lot more sense, especially since he always has "homework" to do on the lunge and in ground lines, too.

                            And, yes, he's five. Bred two mares in 2006, one this year. No plans to breed him again this year, if ever.

                            Sugarbrook, Kev actually interacts with mares and other horses a lot (but I do envy you the Welsh sensibility!). I don't put a mare in season in the stall next to him, but when they aren't in, there's always one next to him (on purpose). He's been turned out with pregnant mares (but, alas, sometimes seems to get pissed at them and charges--doesn't do so when he's out with multiple mares, though--but it does mean I can't leave him unsupervised). Actually, until this year, he'd also always schooled with a mare--Cliche, his cropmate--including shipping to the horse park together. But then he started getting a hard-on afterwards, like he was so proud of himself, he had to HAVE her! So, I stopped working them together.

                            The sad/frustrating thing about it is that Kev is the fourth Teddiboy to act like this, although the first to be in serious work as well. I sold Caleb partly because I didn't want another PITA like Ted (Sr.). Kent (and Ted Sr.) were easy as can be as long as they had a mare to keep them company--but both existed only for breeding and I'm determined that Kev won't be as dependent on a companion as those two were. (Kent actually did himself in because I'd turned him out before putting a mare in with him--it took me a while to walk back with the mare and by the time I'd gotten back, he'd injured himself, fatally as it turned out).

                            This issue is actually what I've grappled with for a while--ever since I lost Kent, in fact: Would a Teddiboy have enough sanity to both breed and compete? I know I walk a fine line in how they are bred (to be somewhat kamakazee-like), so I just don't know if Kev will make it. I'm trying to hang in there and find solutions until I've gotten to know enough about his get and his talent to decide if the hassles are worthwhile. Thing is, he's a very good boy and very enthusiastic about all-things-jump...except for those times when his nether-region brain kicks in .

                            So, all, thanks for the advice! Kev will be my next FEI level dressage horse for sure if he doesn't make it o/f and/or as a stallion. He's depressing in the stallion area, but his sensitivity and reactivity (and "sit-ability") is everything I could ask for for my personal riding goals...sigh.
                            Sportponies Unlimited
                            Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

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                            • #15
                              Maybe you should collect and freeze him, and then geld him.
                              Spruce Hill Farm

                              Member/co-founder of the boot to the head clique. Got air?! Member of the Asthmatic Riders Clique.

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                              • #16
                                I agree with sprucie.

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                                • #17
                                  He is young and he is still learning what is appropriate and what is not. If you are not sure you want to geld him then keep working him but, as was suggested, don't set him up for failure. You know that he has a healthy interest in girls. It doesn't sound like he is mean or viscious in any way (just really distracted) so I wouldn't be pushing to geld him just because he isn't perfect as a 5 year old. They have to learn to focus. He does see those mares all the time though so he will be extra attracted to them. He thinks that they are "his" mares. Perhaps if those mares are out of his sight while they are in heat and he is having his lesson you will get better concentration. Can you stall the mares while he is being worked if the mares are in heat? Stall them the night before so nobody is handling them the day he is to be ridden and he can't see them the day he is to be ridden. Perhaps it is a big more than you want to have to do all the time but since he is learning it is worth the effort to see if the light bulb goes off in his brain. It could be temporary.
                                  Altamont Sport Horses
                                  Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
                                  Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
                                  Birmingham, AL

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                                  • #18
                                    I actually find that stallions that have never been bred, or been bred only once or twice and then not again are very frustrated creatures. (maybe Kathy can elaborate on that) Stallions that are actively breeding are much nicer to work with as they are 'satisfied'. Same as ANY man really, isn't it??
                                    The boys get very frustrated when they have the equipment but don't get to use it. I know with my young guy, he settled RIGHT down once we started actively breeding with him this year. He is coming 5 later this year, and his whole work ethic has changed this year. He's not nearly as in tuned with the mares as he was in previous times. But he has been collected a fair amount this year (not really bred so many mares, but we collected frozen and such too, so more collections than last year). He's much quieter after he's been bred! And will be quiet for WEEKS after too
                                    Food for thought......

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by cheekyhorse View Post
                                      I actually find that stallions that have never been bred, or been bred only once or twice and then not again are very frustrated creatures. (maybe Kathy can elaborate on that) Stallions that are actively breeding are much nicer to work with as they are 'satisfied'. Same as ANY man really, isn't it??
                                      The boys get very frustrated when they have the equipment but don't get to use it. I know with my young guy, he settled RIGHT down once we started actively breeding with him this year. He is coming 5 later this year, and his whole work ethic has changed this year. He's not nearly as in tuned with the mares as he was in previous times. But he has been collected a fair amount this year (not really bred so many mares, but we collected frozen and such too, so more collections than last year). He's much quieter after he's been bred! And will be quiet for WEEKS after too
                                      Food for thought......

                                      I've noticed the same thing. They get to be sexually frustrated and after they breed they really settle down for awhile.

                                      I've always wondered if some people would collect a stallion just to give him some relief and feel good hormones if there was a long gap in breeding. Does anyone do that?
                                      Altamont Sport Horses
                                      Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
                                      Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
                                      Birmingham, AL

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                                      • #20
                                        Sometimes I have done a "mercy collection" on a phantom of course to relieve the built up of pressure, sort of speak. I'll do it if I plan on turning my stallion out with my pregant mares for the first time, that way he might be thinking when he meets the mare instead of reacting like a stallion.

                                        Since he is a stallion, I assume you plan on breeding him in the future, why not train him now that the phantom is the only place he can behave like a stallion. Good luck.

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