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Stallion owners need to get realistic about offering frozen semen.

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  • #21
    Gwen, a lot of contracts do not restrict the number of foals that can be produced from the doses purchased. Of course the stallion owner may specify in the contract that 1 does = 1 foal, max., no splitting allowed. But a lot of contracts do not.

    Personally, I can't imagine splitting even when it is allowed. I am just happy to get one pregnancy from one dose! That's hard enough sometimes!
    Roseknoll Sporthorses
    www.roseknoll.net

    Comment


    • #22
      Even with a contract that prohibits splitting doses, there are going to be some unscrupulous people who ignore that clause - esp. if the stallion owner is overseas. It is completely unrealistic for someone in Germany to try to sue someone in Australia, for instance - especially for only the cost of a few doses of frozen semen. It would cost far more in legal fees than the stallion owner would be able to recover - if they could even win the lawsuit. Not worth the time and trouble, if you ask me.

      IMHO, the best solution is to offer a tiered structure as Kathy said. In fact, I suggested this a few years ago to several friends that stand stallions. That way, the mare owner can choose which option they want.

      Comment


      • #23
        I've been researching this, and for warmbloods, it is miserable, not just in the US. I just came across a study in Europe that compared international competing GP stallions, and some did not have more then 7 mares for several years straight!Talk about an eyeopener for me! Balansing competetion and breeding seems to be impossible on that side of the pond as well.

        And with statistics out as they are, with most stallions getting fewer then 20 mares a year (with the exception of a few, a very few), I believe the average income of a stallion is less then 7k. In this area, with minimal care, it COSTS 7k to keep a horse. So I'm with sj66 when I say that most stallion owners do not rely on the stallion as their source of income.

        To the OP, just buy by the dose and have it stored at your vet. Seem like the easiest solution to me. Then you have the doses and that's it, your choice what you do with it.

        And some SOs don't care whether you get more then 1 pregnancy per dose. I know the ones I represent per dose don't give a hoola. One said something like, if they get 6 pregnancies with the 3 doses we sent then we'd LOVE to know as we'd use it as advertisement for fertility
        Marieke

        www.EquineFashionandTack.com
        www.Twitter.com/EquineFashion

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Marieke View Post
          One said something like, if they get 6 pregnancies with the 3 doses we sent then we'd LOVE to know as we'd use it as advertisement for fertility
          That would be my view. But it may depend a bit on how much people are charging for the doses. Although I personally won't split even when allowed (and potentially jeopardize getting any pregnancy), I think it would be a little nervy to say you can't split semen that is $2500 a dose, for example.
          Roseknoll Sporthorses
          www.roseknoll.net

          Comment


          • #25
            Thinking about this slightly differently...

            This situation happened to me last year:
            What's the difference between a situation where I order a dose of chilled semen from a stallion owner, use it on my mare, then flush her for embryo transfer and get twins, and then have to pay 2 stud fees (which I had to)

            or

            Shipping a dose of semen which has been calculated to be required for a single pregnancy, but then you split it and get 2 pregnancies from 2 mares.

            My view is that in both instances only 1 dose was shipped, and 2 pregnancies resulted. Therefore I think you should pay 2 stud fees. After all you have the benefit of getting 2 foals which you can sell for double the profit, but the poor stallion owner sees nothing of that profit.

            I had no issue paying a second stud fee, although the stud did give me a discount, which I think is the right compromise in a situation like this.

            ...so in conclusion, I think that if you buy semen by the dose and choose to split it, you should be honest with the stallion owner in advance by telling them that's what you intend to do, and agree a discounted stud fee should a 2nd pregnancy result.

            If you're buying semen on a LFG you are paying for a pregnancy. If you split it you are being dishonest. If you get more than 1 pregnancy you have effectively entered into a 2nd LFG contract with the stallion owner, and owe them a 2nd stud fee.

            Mare owner and stallion owners need each other, so let's play fair with each other eh?
            Julia
            http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk
            Future Sport Horses - Breeding Future Champions

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by jhodkin View Post

              If you're buying semen on a LFG you are paying for a pregnancy. If you split it you are being dishonest. If you get more than 1 pregnancy you have effectively entered into a 2nd LFG contract with the stallion owner, and owe them a 2nd stud fee.
              I disagree. I believe it depends on the terms of the contract. If the contract says 1 does = 1 foal, then yes, splitting and not telling the SO is dishonest. If the contract contains no such limitation or affirmatively permits splitting, then it is not being dishonest to split.
              Roseknoll Sporthorses
              www.roseknoll.net

              Comment


              • #27
                Well, We have to quarantine Landkoenig and some others for freezing because of European demand for them but for me it is pretty simple Domestically.

                Good semen doses $377-477 per dose you can get several if you want and you would not be the first to get a one dose pregnancy. If you want some guarantee, fine, have a vet AI and send a note with the used straws, in the year that you purchased them telling it did not produce a pregnancy and I credit it towards a LFG fresh semen agreement that can be used anytime.
                www.immunallusa.com
                www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Edgar View Post

                  Good semen doses $377-477 per dose you can get several if you want and you would not be the first to get a one dose pregnancy. If you want some guarantee, fine, have a vet AI and send a note with the used straws, in the year that you purchased them telling it did not produce a pregnancy and I credit it towards a LFG fresh semen agreement that can be used anytime.
                  That is a really good deal.
                  Roseknoll Sporthorses
                  www.roseknoll.net

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    The one thing that I have come across while shopping for stallions (goal of a hunter), is that even with the vet costs associated (which aren't that bad at all and very comparable to fresh particularly due to P + E), is that it is actually much more affordable to go the frozen route and end up with a very very nice stallion. Not to mention some of these stallions available via frozen have offspring competing in the hunters, doing well, versus some of the US guys who have higher stud fee's and nothing proven on the ground. Obviously there are exceptions, but for the most part, I find this true.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I do have the 1 dose - 1 foal rule in my contract and even the cremello only to solid colored mares and it was done anyway. Semen splitted and Cremello stallion put onto Cremello mare. So I am re-thinking of freezing semen as I do not like to be cheated and it seems to be done easy with frozen semen.
                      Gwendolyn
                      http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.com
                      Exceptional colored German WBs, TBs and Arabians

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                        I disagree. I believe it depends on the terms of the contract. If the contract says 1 does = 1 foal, then yes, splitting and not telling the SO is dishonest. If the contract contains no such limitation or affirmatively permits splitting, then it is not being dishonest to split.
                        With a LFG it says 'Live FOAL guarantee' (note the singular 'foal'), not Live FoalS guarantee. I think that covers it doesn't it? The stallion owner is trying to help the mare owner as far as is humanely possible by giving them terms that means they can keep having semen until they get a live foal. Given that most repro problems originate with the mare not the stallion, that's a pretty generous offer.

                        To then abuse that by illegitimately splitting a dose to gain 2 pregnancies is fraud.

                        If you buy semen by the dose, knock yourself out, do what the heck you like - it's your semen and if you split it and use it on 2 mares and get no pregnancies that's your loss (but the point is the stallion owner hasn't lost either). If you get 1 or 2 pregnancies that's your gain, but splitting a dose with a LFG is absolutely dishonest. It is a clear attempt to get 'something for nothing' as is grossly unfair to the stallion owner.

                        Are you honestly saying that with all clear conscience you would ask for semen from a stallion owner on LFG terms, split the dose, use it on 2 mares and if you get no pregnancies, then have the outright cheek to go back and ask for more semen? You HAVE to be having a laugh!

                        I would not dream of doing that with semen from a stallion on a LFG.

                        If you want 2 foals, pay 2 stud fees like everyone else.
                        Last edited by jhodkin; Jun. 25, 2008, 06:46 AM.
                        Julia
                        http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk
                        Future Sport Horses - Breeding Future Champions

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Well using frozen semen is an OPTION to mare owners. We have banked a substantial amount of frozen semen for our pony stallion Popeye and it did cost us a considerable amount of money to do that. But we felt it did allow us to offer frozen as an option or if there was a showing conflict or if something happened to him.

                          As far as breeding with frozen - you need a Vet who knows how to handle it and a place to store the semen if you aren't using the frozen semen as soon as it arrives.

                          As far as fees there - the vary from stallion to stallion - if you don't like the fees - don't sign the contract. We have sold by the dose to mare ownes in the past and they store the extra doses at their Vet's office. They have to report to me which mares are being bred for a Breeding Certificate - for some mare owners this is very convenient.
                          Summit Sporthorses Ltd. Inc.
                          "Breeding Competition Partners & Lifelong Friends"

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by jhodkin View Post
                            With a LFG it says 'Live FOAL guarantee' (note the singular 'foal'), not Live FoalS guarantee. I think that covers it doesn't it? The stallion owner is trying to help the mare owner as far as is humanely possible by giving them terms that means they can keep having semen until they get a live foal. Given that most repro problems originate with the mare not the stallion, that's a pretty generous offer.

                            To then abuse that by illegitimately splitting a dose to gain 2 pregnancies is fraud.

                            If you buy semen by the dose, knock yourself out, do what the heck you like - it's your semen and if you split it and use it on 2 mares and get no pregnancies that's your loss (but the point is the stallion owner hasn't lost either). If you get 1 or 2 pregnancies that's your gain, but splitting a dose with a LFG is absolutely dishonest. It is a clear attempt to get 'something for nothing' as is grossly unfair to the stallion owner.

                            Are you honestly saying that with all clear conscience you would ask for semen from a stallion owner on LFG terms, split the dose, use it on 2 mares and if you get no pregnancies, then have the outright cheek to go back and ask for more semen? You HAVE to be having a laugh!

                            I would not dream of doing that with semen from a stallion on a LFG.

                            If you want 2 foals, pay 2 stud fees like everyone else.
                            I already said I don't split doses, period. Even if the contract were to expressly permit doing so, I can't imagine making it any more difficult to get a foal on the ground. My goal is always to simply get the mare pregnant on the first go. The stud fee is only one part of my total costs, obviously, and having to do multiple cycles gets expensive and is a waste of my time.

                            Regarding the contractual terms, frankly, I would have to see the contract to tell you precisely what it does and does not allow. But if the only thing remotely suggesting the number of foals given is "LFG", I can tell you that as a legal matter, NO, that does not prohibit splitting. If you are an SO and you don't want people to split, then by all means specify that in your contract.

                            We used fresh semen on one of my mares this year, contract was an LFG, and it set forth very clearly that it was for one mare, to produce one foal and no more than that. We also were asked to provide the name of the mare and her registration information at the time the contract was signed, and there was paperwork for my vet to fill out. It is a very clear, very good contract from a top breeding operation here. It is really not all that hard to have a contract that spells everything out. If this splitting issue is important to a particular SO, I cannot fathom not addressing that issue in the contract.

                            Also, the only reason I commented on this issue was to highlight the need to have clear contractual terms setting forth everyone's rights and obligations. That is all.
                            Roseknoll Sporthorses
                            www.roseknoll.net

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              As I said before, I had a situation last year where a stallion owner did one collection for me, we AI'd the mare and she was flushed for an embryo and produced twins. I did not even attempt to argue the toss over whether I owed another stud fee even though the stallion owner has not incurred more costs, I just paid it as I had 2 foals.

                              I'm sure it wouldn't occur to most stallion owners, especially in the UK to build in terms regarding splitting doses, because in their view, if you buy a covering you would only get 1 covering certificate for that fee, so if you produced more than 1 foal, you would not get the foal parentage verified by way of a covering certificate.

                              With frozen semen, the same thing applies, the fact that a dose is made up of a number of straws is irrelevant. It's a single dose for which a single covering fee would be charged and for which a single covering certificate would be issued. Any other offspring produced would be illegitimate in every sense of the word.

                              Very little semen is bought in the UK on a dose basis or LFG basis, it's mainly done on a set number of attempts (e.g. 3 cycles for your fee), a NFFR, or NFNF basis. Under these terms splitting a dose would be seriously frowned upon as you nominate a specific mare to the stallion (and the stallion owner has the right to accept or reject the mare), and if you then go and split it to use on an unapproved mare, that's a breach of what has been agreed between the stallion owner and the mare owner.

                              Maybe things are different in the US, but in the UK if you started making a habit of splitting doses without prior consent from the stallion owner, you'd soon find a lot of studs not willing to do business with you.
                              Julia
                              http://www.futuresporthorses.co.uk
                              Future Sport Horses - Breeding Future Champions

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                This does not apply to buying frozen semen by that dose, but rather frozen or fresh semen with a LFG. Twins, for me, is a whole different game than splitting doses and inseminating multiple mares. If a mare owner was lucky enough to flush two viable embryos and end up with two successful pregnancies, we pat them on the back and do not charge them a second stud fee. Now if they breed the same mare twice, flush, and have two pregnancies from two different flushes, then they owe a second stud fee. If they breed two (or three) different mares with the same shipment, then they owe additional stud fees.

                                Originally posted by jhodkin View Post
                                As I said before, I had a situation last year where a stallion owner did one collection for me, we AI'd the mare and she was flushed for an embryo and produced twins. I did not even attempt to argue the toss over whether I owed another stud fee even though the stallion owner has not incurred more costs, I just paid it as I had 2 foals.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  It seems appropriate to me that if you are using one dose of fresh or frozen on one mare for one cycle and she produces two embryos that are flushed that the mare owner should not be expected to pay a second stud fee. It is generally not planned and the mare owner is faced with significant additional fees for transplanting the second embryo into a second mare and if the recip mares are not hers then she is paying the ET facility for an additional recip mare as well. I mean, what is the mare owner to do...throw away one embryo and hope that the other one takes?

                                  We had a mare we were breeding and doing an ET on that we were concerned would result in more than one embryo. It's great for increasing chances of getting at least one but if they both hold then you are looking at more expenses not only for the recip mare and her transfer fees but also caring for her and her extra foal. When I spoke with the stallion owner before I could even ask she offered "of course we would not charge you for the second embryo if that happens." It ended up not holding so it was a non-issue anyway but I was relieved to hear that I wouldn't be in a situation of having to pay an additional stud fee on top of all the fees for the second recip mare.
                                  Altamont Sport Horses
                                  Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
                                  Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
                                  Birmingham, AL

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Altamont Sport Horses View Post
                                    We had a mare we were breeding and doing an ET on that we were concerned would result in more than one embryo. It's great for increasing chances of getting at least one but if they both hold then you are looking at more expenses not only for the recip mare and her transfer fees but also caring for her and her extra foal. When I spoke with the stallion owner before I could even ask she offered "of course we would not charge you for the second embryo if that happens." It ended up not holding so it was a non-issue anyway but I was relieved to hear that I wouldn't be in a situation of having to pay an additional stud fee on top of all the fees for the second recip mare.
                                    That's great! I know of 2 SO's who have a special breeding contract for ET breedings that MO is required to sign that states the MO is responsible for an additional stud fee that ET breeding results in more than one foal. All 3 of the SO's that I have spoken with require an additional stud fee if the ET resultsin more than one foal. Personally, I think they are shooting themselves in the foot because the majority of ET breedings are done with valuable and top quality mares what produce quality foals. You would that a SO would want as many of those foals on the ground as possible for marketing purposes!

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by aurum View Post
                                      I do have the 1 dose - 1 foal rule in my contract and even the cremello only to solid colored mares and it was done anyway. Semen splitted and Cremello stallion put onto Cremello mare. So I am re-thinking of freezing semen as I do not like to be cheated and it seems to be done easy with frozen semen.
                                      A little off topic, but why don't you want your cremello stallion bred to a cremello mare? Just curious.

                                      Caitlin
                                      Caitlin
                                      *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                                      http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by RedMare01 View Post
                                        A little off topic, but why don't you want your cremello stallion bred to a cremello mare? Just curious.

                                        Caitlin
                                        She probably does not want stallion competition if the resulting foal was a colt.

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          I'm glad I was able to spark discussion on this topic.

                                          It seems like many of the stallion owners who have replied (or at least one, for sure) have adequately filled books for their stallions so therefore don't need to try to market more aggressively to get bookings. And that's absolutely terrific.

                                          However, what I was getting at is primarily directed towards younger stallions who likely aren't getting anything close to a full book.

                                          There has to be some middle ground between what I'm reading in stallion contracts and whta I discussed.

                                          I fully realize that frozen requires quite a bit of technological knowhow that is beyond most breeders. And I personally would not perform a frozen insemination on my own (I'm not that confident in my skills, lol). But I see on the SBS site and Kathy's site information that seems to encourage people to do their own breedings (use P&E to time insemination, multi-dose breedings (using up to three doses) with frozen to reduce ultrasound costs, etc) and also notice that the fees charged by the semen agents are higher than a collection fee in many cases, which pretty much negates any savings either party might be able to get by using frozen.

                                          And what I'm seeing on LFG contracts for frozen is "one dose - one cycle - one shipment." Or, if you're lucky, "one cycle- two doses - one shipment." That's mucho dinero for shipping. And I have indeed been charged on my card for a damage deposit (prior to shipping) that was never refunded despite prompt return of the dry shipper, which was handled solely by the staff at a veterinary university and acknowledged returned without damage. So yes, I'm leery about contracts that state you have to pay a huge damage deposit up front rather than just supplying a cc number.

                                          What makes me nervous about buying by the dose is broken straws. I paid by the dose last time and the university exploded two of them. OUCH. That brought me down to one dose, one breeding, one shipping fee. OUCH again.

                                          Here is my thought on someone who is going to "steal" breedings with extra frozen doses... That person would likely never have purchased an additional breeding anyway. So yes, you're out an extra dose or two, which you would have been out even if they hadn't used it. Meanwhile, you're making life a major pain for the majority of breeders who aren't going to misuse your semen and who would likely pay you the additional fee if they have extra doses left over on a LFG.

                                          As a compromise, why not a live foal guarantee where someone could pay a premium price for having additional straws shipped?

                                          Spectrum.

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