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Tb Mare Families - Plus a pedigree

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  • Tb Mare Families - Plus a pedigree

    Thoughts on this pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/corny+miss

    What have american TB mare families accomplished, in breeding or competition? And what is the history of their origin?

  • #2
    when Bruce Lowe and/or Bobinski set up the TB Female Family system, they started with the British General Studbook that was first published in something like 1780 by Weatherby's. The General Studbook didn't register anything but British horses, so there were some TBs in the rest of the world who came from mares who were not in the GSB. In the US for instance, which didn't even start a Studbook until around 1830, we'd been importing and breeding TBs long before 1780, so some of our mares couldn't be traced back to the 1780 GSB. Poland, Argentina, and Australia/New Zealand (and maybe other places as well) were in similar positions--that is they were using mares to breed TBs for many generations that couldn't be traced back to the GSB. For those foreigners, Lowe/Bobinski set up non-GSB families. The American Studbook started in about 1830, and it is possible that some of the early mares weren't "pure" TB from GB, but by the time the ASB got rolling they had been used in TB breeding for eons and their foals were registered as American TBs. Most of them were bred to imported TB stallions who can be traced to the GSB.

    As to the quality of the American mare families, it's hit or miss. One thing that definitely has happened when importing got to be huge at the end of the 19th Century was that many British/Irish mares were imported to improve quality and over time have pushed out most of the mares in American families. Same thing has happened in Australia and New Zealand--the Colonial mare lines are disappearing. There is a lot of history involved in this. In the US, the preferred type of racing was the old British marathon--4 mile long races and they were run in heats, so a horse might have to run many, many miles to win. This came from the time when racing was for Cavalry horse improvement both here and in GB. The Brits replaced heat racing with "dashes"--single races of (Usually) much less than 4 miles--back in about 1830. The US stayed with heat racing until (IIRC) 1870 or 1880, but switched to dashes just about the time they started importing GB horses in huge numbers. One might think that the reason for the imports was to increase pure speed, as the American horse had still been bred for heat racing--which was as much about stamina and endurance as pure speed in a single dash.

    I suppose that the MtDNA of the American Families had been selected for stamina and endurance, and that's why the lines were less good at dashes. They still exist and still race. I think A1 and A4 are probably the most successful, but in the main, the American mare lines are very close to disappearing in today's 6f world.

    although some of these American lines are also found in the very early QH ancestors, so perhaps today's 6f sprints would have made them more successful at the track and kept more of the lines alive.

    Mare's pedigree looks Californian to me. I think it's very interesting (nice) with all the doubles in the fifth generation. Annsten has a very old line American pedigree with many lines that are now dead except through very rare mares.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 6, 2011, 09:02 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    • Original Poster

      Thanks Viney

      Thanks Viney I sent you a PM.

      Is this mare line worth taking a chance on as a brood-mare?


      • #4
        Is this the one you were thinking Argus for?? or some other older line?
        "The Desire to Win is worthless without the Desire to Prepare"

        It's a "KILT". If I wore something underneath, it would be a "SKIRT".


        • Original Poster

          I don't own this mare or this family. I posted her peigree because I wanted to know more about American tb mares and the risk involved with breeding to this type of mare line.

          As to argus, uniform, and other older kwpn stallions I would like to know what is around. Whether I have a mare for any of these stallions, remains to be seen.

          I'm at a bit of a cross road, pertaining to the use of older semen, whoever the stallion. How old is to old? And when do you start taking a step back in breeding rather than making the jump forward?


          • #6
            You can say that the fact that the tail female mare line still exists and is being bred says that it can produce nice individuals. If the mare in question has a history of production and you have a feel for how nice the foals have been and what they have done, that's worth as much or more than the paper, because the individual horses who come from a mare prove her as a breeder.

            I will say that the fact that this mare has several lines to Hyperion, top and bottom, is promising from a movement perspective, as are the several lines to Dark Ronald. Grounded comes from well proved sport lines; Risque Reigh is in the pedigrees of two horses in my Dr. Birdsall volumes; and the other horses in the pedigree who produced the California breeders all have representatives in sport.
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lingkra View Post
              I don't own this mare or this family. I posted her peigree because I wanted to know more about American tb mares and the risk involved with breeding to this type of mare line.

              As to argus, uniform, and other older kwpn stallions I would like to know what is around. Whether I have a mare for any of these stallions, remains to be seen.

              I'm at a bit of a cross road, pertaining to the use of older semen, whoever the stallion. How old is to old? And when do you start taking a step back in breeding rather than making the jump forward?
              It has been my observation that the WB breeders say they do not breed backward...always forward. IMHO, in the case of TB non-racing sport lines...they have been dropped for several decades, and so it would seem necessary to look backward to try to pick up some of the old great lines to redevelop them, to have something to go forward with.