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Color people: the verdict is (black) silver dapple splash frame sabino.

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  • Color people: the verdict is (black) silver dapple splash frame sabino.

    Edited to change title. Glad we've got a name for this color now!

    Original post:

    My mom bought a new Welsh/Paint X overo pony mare and I'm not sure what color she is! Grulla? Chocolate palomino? Sooty palomino? Silver bay? She's lighter colored and heavily dappled under her belly and on her lower flanks. I wish the photos showed her color a little better! It's hard to guess what color her mane and tail would be if not for her pinto markings.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...&id=1058283407
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...&id=1058283407
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...&id=1058283407
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...&id=1058283407

    BTW, we're not breeding, just curious!

    Thanks.
    Last edited by didgery; Jun. 23, 2008, 03:46 PM.
    My ears hear a symphony of two mules, trains, and rain. The best is always yet to come, that's what they explained to me. —Bob Dylan

    Fenway Bartholomule ♥ Arrietty G. Teaspoon Brays Of Our Lives

  • #2
    Do you know anything about what her parents looked like?

    Comment


    • #3
      Looking at the photos, she could very well be silver dapple. See how the area around the base of her tail is all dark? There is no white marking there to account for the lightness of the tail. The chocolatey-greyish tone of the body combined with the silvery-flaxen of the mane/tail sure look silver dapple to me. I guess it could possibly be a super-super-dark palomino or flaxen chestnut too, but if you really want to know for certain, you could get her tested.

      One thing for sure, she is frame overo, so if you ever did decide to breed her, just be 100% sure that the stallion you choose has tested negative for LW.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by Blue Moon View Post
        Looking at the photos, she could very well be silver dapple. See how the area around the base of her tail is all dark? There is no white marking there to account for the lightness of the tail. The chocolatey-greyish tone of the body combined with the silvery-flaxen of the mane/tail sure look silver dapple to me. I guess it could possibly be a super-super-dark palomino or flaxen chestnut too, but if you really want to know for certain, you could get her tested.

        One thing for sure, she is frame overo, so if you ever did decide to breed her, just be 100% sure that the stallion you choose has tested negative for LW.
        Good point about the tail color, Blue Moon! I noticed yesterday that she does have one dark area that bleeds into her mane a bit, but the color of that bit of mane (up near her crest) starts out exactly the same shade as her body and then fades to white. Does that sound consistent with silver dapple?

        I don't know anything about her parents, nor the rest of her history beyond the most recent owner (who had her for just one month). She doesn't really have a topline or a hind end you'd want to reproduce but then she's been packing around a huge horse-sized western saddle and she's only four. Her musculature might develop in great ways with appropriate work. All the same, I don't anticipate ever breeding her.

        Thanks for the post! She was advertised as grulla, but I don't think that sounds quite right to me. Nice to get other opinions!
        My ears hear a symphony of two mules, trains, and rain. The best is always yet to come, that's what they explained to me. —Bob Dylan

        Fenway Bartholomule ♥ Arrietty G. Teaspoon Brays Of Our Lives

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't know, but she is CUTE!
          Roseknoll Sporthorses
          www.roseknoll.net

          Comment


          • #6
            BUmping for Daydream Believer. She has lots of overo/grulla/dun types and might have an idea.

            She sure is a cute thing!!
            =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
            ~Jilltx~

            Comment


            • #7
              IMO black silver with frame, sabino and possible splash.

              ACC

              Comment


              • #8
                didgery would you consider testing her or no?
                Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
                  didgery would you consider testing her or no?
                  I haven't really got the $25 to spend but I would love to know the details just to satisfy my curiosity . . . maybe one day in the future!

                  She's very green and therefore ill suited to her intented purpose here as a kid's pony . . . my mom may end up selling her in order to make room for a babysitter pony, in which case we might get her tested just to correctly represent her color to potential buyers. Otherwise, there's no big motivator since we don't plan to breed her and she isn't registered.

                  I just noticed your very cool color BB in your signature, btw . . . great idea!
                  My ears hear a symphony of two mules, trains, and rain. The best is always yet to come, that's what they explained to me. —Bob Dylan

                  Fenway Bartholomule ♥ Arrietty G. Teaspoon Brays Of Our Lives

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by didgery View Post
                    I just noticed your very cool color BB in your signature, btw . . . great idea!
                    Aww thank you!
                    Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                    http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by didgery View Post
                      I noticed yesterday that she does have one dark area that bleeds into her mane a bit, but the color of that bit of mane (up near her crest) starts out exactly the same shade as her body and then fades to white. Does that sound consistent with silver dapple?
                      As a matter of fact, it does.

                      Well, for sure not grulla, anyway!! They would have black points (legs, mane, tail) and dun-factor markings (dorsal stripe, leg barring, etc.). She has none of that. Plus, you mentioned that she is heavily dappled in places. Dapples are not a normal characteristic of the dun colors.

                      If you wanted to do a complete set of tests to know absolutely for sure what she is genetically, it would cost about $100 or so, and if there's no intention of breeding her, it's probably not worth it. Unless you find yourself with a sudden windfall and are just dying of curiosity. If you just want to rule out the chestnut/palomino option (IMO, the only other thing she could be) then a red-factor test ($40) would suffice.

                      Really, if it were me, I'd be comfortable with the silver dapple diagnosis, and not bother with any testing unless I planned on breeding her, or selling her to someone who really cared one way or another.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by acc View Post
                        IMO black silver with frame, sabino and possible splash.

                        ACC
                        Ditto, though I think definite Splash The mane isn't any help in the Silver department, but the tail is about a dead giveaway. The body color looks like a muted black, which is consistent with a black silver. The Frame and Sabino are obvious as well.
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Can you have sabino with dark legs? She certainly has a great face marking and a white lower lip!
                          My ears hear a symphony of two mules, trains, and rain. The best is always yet to come, that's what they explained to me. —Bob Dylan

                          Fenway Bartholomule ♥ Arrietty G. Teaspoon Brays Of Our Lives

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by didgery View Post
                            Can you have sabino with dark legs?
                            Yep, you can A few of us here have a theory that when you have Frame, which does not put white on the legs, ever, then you can get Sabino leg white, which would more likely than not have been there at least in some minimal form, "pushed" off the legs. However, even a Sabino-only can have solid legs.
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jilltx View Post
                              BUmping for Daydream Believer. She has lots of overo/grulla/dun types and might have an idea.

                              She sure is a cute thing!!
                              Not a dun or grulla. Think of dun factor as a dilution gene with darker points and you'll see why. Her legs and head would be darker than her body color and I see no sign of primitive markings or a dorsal stripe.

                              Here is a grulla overo. This filly is a light grulla:

                              http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...ss/lilly08.jpg


                              This mare is a darker grulla with sabino.

                              http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...owasBreeze.jpg

                              My best guess is silver dapple also.

                              Blue Moon...Duns can dapple if you feed them right! I have a farm full of them this Spring. My roans dappled out also.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                In an attempt to learn...

                                So I know NOTHING about color...but this is facinating. Can you explain the differences for me? What exatly does Splash, Frame, Sabino, and Overo mean in terms of markings? What about Tobiano?

                                I'm gathering that Splash is "low white"...white nose and legs? and that Frame is no white on the "outside"? Only white splotches? I was also gathering from the other thred that maybe the eyes have something to do with it?

                                Thanks!!

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  So she's a silver dapple splash frame overo? Thanks! Sounds much more accurate than than calling her a "maybe-grulla" pinto.
                                  My ears hear a symphony of two mules, trains, and rain. The best is always yet to come, that's what they explained to me. —Bob Dylan

                                  Fenway Bartholomule ♥ Arrietty G. Teaspoon Brays Of Our Lives

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Cassy's Mom View Post
                                    So I know NOTHING about color...but this is facinating. Can you explain the differences for me? What exatly does Splash, Frame, Sabino, and Overo mean in terms of markings? What about Tobiano?

                                    I'm gathering that Splash is "low white"...white nose and legs? and that Frame is no white on the "outside"? Only white splotches? I was also gathering from the other thred that maybe the eyes have something to do with it?
                                    You've done pretty good!

                                    Splash isn't necessarily just "low white", but it does have the impression of the horse being dipped, feet/nose/tail first, into white paint. That's why a bottom-heavy face white mark is more apt to be Splash instead of, or in addition to Sabino. Leg white tends to have a horizontal look to it, instead of a jagged edge more typical of Sabino. When it comes to body white, it's common for the white to come up the belly and through the midsection. How far forward and back that spreads is individual. It can be as obvious as the whole bottom half of the horse being white, to just the barrel being white. Face white can be iffy to tell, but if you see a bald face with a clear delineation at the ears, you can rest assured it's Splash. AND, if you have a solid head but blue eyes, you're nearly guaranteed it's Splash

                                    Frame is indeed "white in the middle", framed by color. White doesn't cross the center line. There is debate as to whether Frame can put white on the face (the front of the face), but I don't believe it can. It does not put white on the legs. Frame is Lethal White Overo, LWO is Frame, a 1:1 relationship. Additionally, it does not have to be expressed at all, so you can have a solid Frame. The white/color lines tend to be fairly jagged, unlike the typically smooth lines of a Tobi. So, when you see a Tobi who has jagged edges, it's likely that Frame is in there as well.

                                    Overo is a catch-all for Frame and Splash. Sabino is not an Overo pattern. All 4 patterns can exist at the same time, or any combination of them.

                                    Tobiano just about guarantees white crossing the centerline somewhere, even if it's just in the tail. Tobi does not produce head white (not just no face white, it's no head white), so any time you see a Tobi with white on its head anywhere, you are guaranteed there's another pattern present. Tobi nearly always has 4 white legs below the knees/hocks, sometimes 3, occasionally 2, rarely 1, and I don't believe it's ever been reported that a Tobi-only horse had no white on any leg. A Tobi can be very loud, or very minimal. When it's minimal, the white presentation is usually the legs, with often one hock having white come up over it, and some white in the tail. Sometimes it's just a splotch near the mane somewhere. The borders of the color are usually pretty smooth. When you get one that's getting to be pretty loud, you will still very often see the chest "shield" of color, as well as the ears/head (assuming no other pattern whitened those areas).


                                    http://www.coloredhorses.com/PPnew.html is one of my favorites for talking about the different patterns and their idiosyncrasies.
                                    ______________________________
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by didgery View Post
                                      So she's a silver dapple splash frame overo?
                                      Splash and Frame are Overo, so there's some redundancy there (Black) silver dapple splash frame sabino about covers it
                                      ______________________________
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I'm going to agree with silver dapple, for the same reasons everyone else said- there is a dark area at the base of her mane, but her mane is still blonde there.

                                        Comment

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