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Question about Fees for DSHB shows and closing dates

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  • #21
    I do agree that I would show a LOT more if regular entries were accepted up to a week before, even if not included in a program. I always felt that the early closing date was because the show tended to fill, and that was a way of limiting entries. Adding a late fee can just tip the balance of my talking myself "into", or "not into" showing.

    When I was showing a horse in Hunter Breeding, the "pressure" would stay on, and it still is until the closing time. The closer to the show that it is, the more I feel the pressure to show. I still mark my calendar for the day and hour Upperville HB entries close.

    As for the program, when I was manager/ended up secretary for all of my Dressage shows and CTs, I stayed up many nights getting 2 hours sleep trying to get the times done, and day sheets printed and into competitors packages. I managed 5 shows a year for 18 years and quit. Struggling with little help just got to be too much.

    I bet all of these shows would say yes, YES, YES!! to anyone that wants to volunteer.

    At the end, we were offering $ or free entries to anyone that would help and still got no takers. We were still looking for scribes for the judges afternoon when the show was underway.
    Last edited by Fairview Horse Center; Jun. 19, 2008, 04:28 PM.

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    • Original Poster

      #22
      I agree that shows are often short staffed, though this was not the case.

      Printing off say 100 copies of an addendum, and just having it available, doesn't require anything more than paper and ink. The computer entry program can handle that. One has to question that if say, 10 entries were received and not included in the program...the charge of $50/entry, someone got an additional $500...and could not take a few moments to print out the entry information. At the very least have a POSTED ADDENDUM, so one might know who the horses were?

      Some things I find difficult to comprehend Isn't Dressage all about finesse and precision????
      http://www.herselffarm.com
      Proud of my Hunter Breeding Princesses
      "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        Darlyn, I can sympathize regarding how hard it is to run a show. I did that with Cat Shows, which by the way are limited to a certain number of cats, to allow for adequate time. Generally, one day shows have 225 cats (yes and they fill very easily!). One might think this would be a really logical way to run equine breed shows too!

        Today with computer programs, and copiers at Kinko's which will run, collate and staple, the morning of a show!!!! It isn't the nightmare some make it out to be. You can even e-mail your photocopy needs and have it done, easily.

        I totally agree that the additional fees are a BIG turnoff! It appears that getting money out of "rich" exhibitors is what this is all about. Then you don't even appear in the catalog or on an addendum sheet

        By the way, USDF says that they have NOTHING to do with closing dates OR post entry fees...so one has to look at the show management!
        http://www.herselffarm.com
        Proud of my Hunter Breeding Princesses
        "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro

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        • #24
          Originally posted by sporthorsefilly View Post

          Today with computer programs, and copiers at Kinko's which will run, collate and staple, the morning of a show!!!! It isn't the nightmare some make it out to be. You can even e-mail your photocopy needs and have it done, easily.
          True, IF there is a person available to make that Kinko's run and stand on line and deal with the Kinko's printer when it screws up and to travel to and from Kinko's which may very well be over 1 hour R/T from the showgrounds... It really doesn't just take "5 minutes." (And mention of Kinko's really strikes a chord with me, as it took our local one no less than 4 hours this week to scan a 1-page affidavit into a PDF properly).
          Roseknoll Sporthorses
          www.roseknoll.net

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          • #25
            I was totally aware of Kinkos, but when you are getting 2 - 3 hours sleep for several days before a show, even the 1 hour trip to Kinkos will mean that night, you only get 1 - 2 hours, and there comes a point, when you just don't care. Someone could have offered me $1000. to do one more 10 minute job, and I would have had to turn them down.

            Much of my point in doing shows was to advertise my barn, but rarely did I have the time to sweep an aisle, mow the barn grass, or even print up ads for my horses. So when I needed everything to look its best to get the benefit of the show, the barn and horses looked their worst.

            Our shows were also HIGHLY attended, but we still didn't make a profit. We did get the benefit of the shows by having lots of extra jump equipment that we would not have had, but much of that everyone wanted to keep in the storage house so the paint designs would be protected.

            Our schooling shows averaged 125 dressage rides, with about 70 of those doing the Combined Test. We probably could have made a profit, but I put it back into the show with awards: 10th place ribbons, ribbons for both the Dressage phase as well as overall placing, VERY nice ribbons, High score ribbon neck sashes, and medals, cheap food from a consession stand, etc. We also hired higher priced judges for our shows, using some "R" and even "I" judges.

            People that run these shows do so because their heart is into it, not for the money. Unfortunately, when that is the case, a complaint cuts deep, because you are doing everything you can, and for many, still that is not enough.

            I had one lady tell me that the LEAST I could do was to provide a proper warm-up ring with good footing. Um, the LEAST I could do is to not run the shows. The least would NOT be to install a $100,000. warm-up arena. Heck, at Morven Park for RECOGNIZED shows, you warm up on grass. 100+ people 5 times a year thought my 30 acre level, fenced field was pretty darn good as a warm-up. Those 100+ people are pretty sad that I got tired of killing myself and still not getting the reward of making people happy. Hey, if I am not making people happy, I can do it a whole lot easier, and now I do. (BTW, that lady was riding a TRAINING level dressage test. I never had a complaint from any of the 3/4th Level or Prix St George riders.

            There is a lot more going on behind the curtain than many people know. One of my big time crunches was doing the times. I tried my hardest to get people riding 2 tests in front of both of our judges, so they would get 2 opinions for one outing. I also tried to get their more difficult test into the best footing arena. That took a lot of playing with the schedule, and a lot of effort that no one ever commented on, so I guess it was not wanted, or important to them. It also took me forever to get all 125+ rides on a single sheet of paper, so they could stuff in a pocket to take to the ring with them.
            Last edited by Fairview Horse Center; Jun. 19, 2008, 05:38 PM.

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            • Original Poster

              #26
              Darlyn, it sounds like you had fun but it took a toll.

              I have not had any problem with Kinko's, and actually found them very reliable. But like everything else, they can vary from one to another. You can e-mail them files and have them run off, collated and stapled, which does save a trip.

              Scanning and making a PDF from a document shouldn't take very much time. I have Adobe 8, an HP All in One, printer/scanner/copier/fax at home. You just scan, print to PDF and it is done. Amazing that Kinkos took a long time to accomplish this task.

              Actually, depending on where you work, some employers allow the personal use of their copiers IF you supply your own paper. Again this varies.

              I think we got off topic, as the actual topic is WHY the DSHB shows close a month ahead of time

              WHY is there a large fee for a post entry IF the entry is not included in the catalog

              WHY is there no errata sheet with the post entry information provided???

              SO...who gets the extra $$ and exactly why...It isn't USDF...
              http://www.herselffarm.com
              Proud of my Hunter Breeding Princesses
              "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro

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              • #27
                The post entry fee is probably imposed in large part to deter people from entering late.
                Roseknoll Sporthorses
                www.roseknoll.net

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                • #28
                  Sporthorsefilly,
                  First of all, I am NOT an ‘entry clerk’. I am a professional show secretary and manager who spends almost ALL of my vacation time from my full time job to organize shows so that horses can be showcased. This means that I spend countless hours nights and weekends to input entries into the computer for multiple shows in multiple states in a space of a few months.

                  IMHO, the closing for DSHBS shows stems, in part, from the dressage show most of which have a closing that is up to a month before the show. The closing date is to encourage the competitor to get their entries in so that the secretary has time to process them, send confirmations and get all of the data that competitors do not send with the entry. Personally, I would love to reward those who get their entry in early (but I know that’s a gamble since something could happen to the horse causing a scratch and costing money). So I understand waiting until almost closing day. If all of the entries come in on closing day, it might take me 4 to 5 days to input the data (remembering that we all do this in our spare time). If you made that closing one week before the show, and it took me 4 days to input them, that would leave 3 days to assign stabling, schedule the show, get the program printed, print out and organize the score sheets and other duties all of which have to be done after 6 PM when I finish my real job.
                  As for who sets the closing and late fees, it is up to each individual show to decide these things. USDF and USEF really don’t have much to do with it. The show management decides, and puts it in the prize list. We are required by USEF to run by the prize list that we publish. As for who gets the fees, the show gets the fees. I am hired (as the show secretary) by the show for a fixed amount (either by day or by entry).

                  I host one show (read that I pay for everything out of my own pocket) for which I have to reserve stabling a year in advance. I have to tell the venue more than a week in advance how many stalls we will be actually be using. If I don’t know that at least two weeks before the show (so that I can slot stallions and 3 year old colts and keep them away from the fillies and mares), there’s a chance that a stall will not be available for those late commers. All of this comes into play when setting a closing date.

                  I sincerely hope this helps you understand what the show organizer is up against. It’s not always as easy as it appears. If you would like to help with any of these shows, please let the organizer know. I'm sure they would love to have your assistance.
                  I support and enable the USA bred horse and the USA breeder.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    FWIW when we have sent entries in for the hunter breeding classes at the Devon Horse Show, the closing date is nearly two months before the classes are held. Not all hunter shows close entries for the breed classes one week before they are held.
                    Anne
                    -------
                    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

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                    • #30
                      Good grief Lorik
                      Being a show secretary isn't rocket science no matter how you slice it.

                      Many H/J show secretaries have shows running each weekend. Not sure what you mean by a professional show secretary. My experience is a pro secretary does that job for a living, no day job. A pro secretary isn't doing entry work nights and weekends after their day job is done.

                      About the sending confirmations thing. That rule doesn't apply to H/J shows but I know it does with Dressage shows. Why is that? If that's a problem for a secretary why don't you get the rule changed?

                      I don't understand this ; "get all of the data that competitors do not send with the entry." Huh? If data is missing at a H/J show the exhibitor provides it when picking up their number. If they don't provide the needed info they don't show.

                      True, many of the H/J shows don't have programs. Nobody minds that.

                      H/J shows that do provide stabling have a manager to deal with that aspect, show secretary isn't involved other than making sure the fee is paid. Again, if stabling is an issue then don't provide it for a one day show. It's not a USEF requirement to provide stalls unless it's a multi day show.

                      The after show reporting is similar regardless if it's a dressage show or a H/J show. In fact, it may be a bit more complicated for a H/J show as there are more groups to report results to. Almost all the reporting is electronic so that's not much trouble anymore either.
                      Fan of Sea Accounts

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by not again View Post
                        FWIW when we have sent entries in for the hunter breeding classes at the Devon Horse Show, the closing date is nearly two months before the classes are held. Not all hunter shows close entries for the breed classes one week before they are held.
                        Yes, but Devon is an exception. Limited space, stalls. H/J performance divisions require pre-qualification.

                        As I noted earlier most one day shows that offer HB classes accept post entries right up to class time. If there is an entry cut off it's often 48 hours before the start of the first class. After that you can still enter but you pay a nominal post entry fee.
                        Fan of Sea Accounts

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                        • #32
                          I believe Lori does this part time, in addition to her regular full time job - that does not make her in any way less of a professional. We are INCREDIBLY grateful that she took on this job for many of the shows. She is ABSOLUTELY the right person for the job, and we hope she NEVER burns out. These shows desperately needed her.

                          It is not rocket science, but it does take very good organizational skills, along with someone that can take pressure. It takes a lot of time. Lori does this because no one else wants to.

                          Unlike Hunter shows, with a trainer heavily involved, DSHB shows are made up of many people that don't do entries regularly. They are missing documents, and don't know that. Sending out letters to tell a competitor what they are missing may not be required, but it helps to avoid the horribly long lines at check in time for people missing things.

                          The H/J shows don't have programs, and I mind it VERY much. It is extremely important to breeders.

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
                            Unlike Hunter shows, with a trainer heavily involved, DSHB shows are made up of many people that don't do entries regularly. They are missing documents, and don't know that. Sending out letters to tell a competitor what they are missing may not be required, but it helps to avoid the horribly long lines at check in time for people missing things.

                            The H/J shows don't have programs, and I mind it VERY much. It is extremely important to breeders.
                            H/J exhibitors can manage to fill out their entry blanks, No intervention required by their trainer. I'm positive that other disciplines can do the same.

                            If sending the letters takes roo much time then don't do it. The first time an exhibitor has to deal with missing info at a show they'll get the idea and most likely won't make the same mistake again.

                            Way too many excuses why the entries have to be in so early and some of the reasons are not required by the rules.

                            If the process causes a 4 week advance window then change the process.

                            I'm sure the programs are important to you but that points out another difference in HB and DSHB. There are spectators at HB shows. Most often exhibitors from another division or people with a connection to a handler or a horse in the class. But at DSHB your spectators are likely to just be other breeders and they would be more interested in breeding info. But HB does fine without providing it.
                            Fan of Sea Accounts

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
                              I'm sure the programs are important to you but that points out another difference in HB and DSHB. There are spectators at HB shows. Most often exhibitors from another division or people with a connection to a handler or a horse in the class. But at DSHB your spectators are likely to just be other breeders and they would be more interested in breeding info. But HB does fine without providing it.
                              Non-breeders might be more interested in the information if they were in fact provided with it. And it would behoove some to educate themselves about bloodlines.

                              I showed for many years throughout the country in H/J on the A Circuit. It has its own problems, too.

                              And don't get me started on HB classes. At least in DSHB, there is not one trainer winning the most important titles year after year.

                              I think one change that would be helpful to exhibitors is to make the entry forms available in a form that can be filled out on a computer and emailed as a PDF file to the show secretary. Some shows may very well do that already, but the DSHB shows I have been involved with required the forms to be printed out and filled in by hand or typed and then sent.

                              Finally, given that most of these DSHB shows seem to have just one person doing the heavy-lifting with regard to handling entries, rather than complain about the system, perhaps try volunteering to help some of these people out. Or, at the very least, refrain from dismissing explanations for the way things are done unless you have tried doing it yourself.
                              Roseknoll Sporthorses
                              www.roseknoll.net

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
                                H/J exhibitors can manage to fill out their entry blanks, No intervention required by their trainer. I'm positive that other disciplines can do the same.

                                If sending the letters takes roo much time then don't do it. The first time an exhibitor has to deal with missing info at a show they'll get the idea and most likely won't make the same mistake again..
                                That may be true, but I for one just hate to stand in line for hours to check in. (Volunteer shortage includes the check in desk) You may "punish" the new people, but it also hurts everyone. Not very encouraging to newbies to keep showing either.

                                I don’t think anyone needs to make excuses for whenever a closing date is selected. The management decides how they want to run their show, and we choose to show, or not. If changes need to be made, volunteer, attend meetings to be part of the show committee, make suggestions, etc.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                                  I showed for many years throughout the country in H/J on the A Circuit. It has its own problems, too.

                                  And don't get me started on HB classes. At least in DSHB, there is not one trainer winning the most important titles year after year.

                                  I think one change that would be helpful to exhibitors is to make the entry forms available in a form that can be filled out on a computer and emailed as a PDF file to the show secretary. Some shows may very well do that already, but the DSHB shows I have been involved with required the forms to be printed out and filled in by hand or typed and then sent.

                                  Finally, given that most of these DSHB shows seem to have just one person doing the heavy-lifting with regard to handling entries, rather than complain about the system, perhaps try volunteering to help some of these people out. Or, at the very least, refrain from dismissing explanations for the way things are done unless you have tried doing it yourself.
                                  Agreed that H/J has it's problems but so what? The discussion was about DSHB closing date. Same comment about trainers winning in H/B ( I think you ment handler). Nothing to do with DSHB.

                                  Many H/J shows do have an entry blank that can be completed in PDF and that is a big help.

                                  About your comments " refrain from dismissing explanations for the way things are done unless you have tried doing it yourself". Hmm. Your might want to refrain from making ASSumptions. Just a thought. You seem fairly bright maybe you'll get the point.
                                  Fan of Sea Accounts

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
                                    Agreed that H/J has it's problems but so what? The discussion was about DSHB closing date. Same comment about trainers winning in H/B ( I think you ment handler). Nothing to do with DSHB.

                                    Many H/J shows do have an entry blank that can be completed in PDF and that is a big help.

                                    About your comments " refrain from dismissing explanations for the way things are done unless you have tried doing it yourself". Hmm. Your might want to refrain from making ASSumptions. Just a thought. You seem fairly bright maybe you'll get the point.
                                    The discussion was about DSHB closing dates. It seems most of your posts are fairly insistent that the way HB shows are done is so far superior to DSHB. As far as many are concerned, there is little to emulate about HB showing. That was my point about that.

                                    Perhaps if your posts were not so condescending and downright rude to people who are actually involved in DSHB (including those like LoriK who works tirelessly to make it possible for others to show), people might be more receptive to your suggestions to the extent they are constructive. I am not going to touch your obnoxious "fairly bright" comment other than to say that is fairly hilarious. And, fwiw, my own comment with regard to refraining from complaining unless you have spent any time actually trying to do entries and volunteering at shows was not specifically directed at you, but rather at anyone who falls into that category.
                                    Last edited by YankeeLawyer; Jun. 20, 2008, 06:46 AM.
                                    Roseknoll Sporthorses
                                    www.roseknoll.net

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                                    • #38
                                      By 'professional' I mean that I get paid to organize shows. I am required by USEF regulations to send confirmations. This year, I'm sending them by e-mail, which cuts the time. I never stated it was rocket science. I was merely trying to explain why things are the way they are right now.

                                      The paperwork might be different between Dressage and H/J. There are, I believe, more requirements. The owners not only must be USEF members (with a dressage discipline), but they must be USDF members. Same for the riders. Handlers (for DSHB) need to be USEF, but not USDF members. In all cases, non-member fees apply, but if someone is a USDF non-member, they must have a non-member number. Horses must have a USDF recording (either HID or lifetime) Unless they are showing in an IBC only. In that case, a USEF HID will suffice. If any of this is missing, it might take a couple of weeks for the competitor to get it through USEF and USDF. If I get audited by USEF and the information is missing, I risk fines to the show and to myself personally.

                                      Since I don't run H/J shows, I don't know the requirements for those.

                                      As for an adendum to the program is concerned. Yes, it could be done. I waited until the Friday before a Wednesday show to send the information to the show manager for printing in the program. The only horses that were not in the program, were the ones that came in after that date.
                                      I support and enable the USA bred horse and the USA breeder.

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                                      • #39
                                        [quote=lorik;3302665]
                                        The paperwork might be different between Dressage and H/J. There are, I believe, more requirements. The owners not only must be USEF members (with a dressage discipline), but they must be USDF members. Same for the riders. Handlers (for DSHB) need to be USEF, but not USDF members. In all cases, non-member fees apply, but if someone is a USDF non-member, they must have a non-member number. Horses must have a USDF recording (either HID or lifetime) Unless they are showing in an IBC only. In that case, a USEF HID will suffice. If any of this is missing, it might take a couple of weeks for the competitor to get it through USEF and USDF. If I get audited by USEF and the information is missing, I risk fines to the show and to myself personally.

                                        Since I don't run H/J shows, I don't know the requirements for those.

                                        /quote]

                                        Substitute USHJA for USDF and the membership requirements are the same.
                                        If the exhibitor doesn't have a number for themselves, the rider or the horse they can apply for it at the show.
                                        Are you saying a DSHB exhibitor can't apply at a show?
                                        Fan of Sea Accounts

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                                          Perhaps if your posts were not so condescending and downright rude to people who are actually involved in DSHB (including those like LoriK who works tirelessly to make it possible for others to show), people might be more receptive to your suggestions to the extent they are constructive. I am not going to touch your obnoxious "fairly bright" comment other than to say that is fairly hilarious. And, fwiw, my own comment with regard to refraining from complaining unless you have spent any time actually trying to do entries and volunteering at shows was not specifically directed at you, but rather at anyone who falls into that category.
                                          Nice try at backpedaling. Your comment was indeed directed at me. You know nothing about my involvement with the equestrian community but you do enjoy making assumptions, don't you.

                                          I brought up HB because the specific issues brought up by the OP such as closing date are handled differently in the H/J world and in a more user-friendly way.
                                          Fan of Sea Accounts

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