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Stallions with spectacular damlines..who are they?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by concertogrosso View Post
    Hey... you forgot Concerto Grosso!!! His dam got "9" for type and comes from the same Stamm (Stem) = motherline as Cicera's Icewater.

    Autobahns pedigree also is especially interesting to me as they bred Ramiro and have some of the finest mares in the (jumping) world. With proven (Ramiro's heritage etc) / there is potential cross-over to other disciplines.

    I must say that I agree with most if not all of the above.

    We do not have the relevant statistics in US to have much significant data to see who has produces well here, Caracas (by Cor de la Bryere), Abdullah (OK, they may be spooky but he did put a few winners on the ground), Contango, Columbus, Rio Grande (all deceased) and others have IMO produced well...

    It takes TEN YEARS at least to see who is a good sire in terms of progeny performance. Outstanding dam lines? Yes, the ones I think are great do have them. Life is too short to breed to a "maybe", I do want a solid dam line behind it,

    Anna

    Sorry Anna!! I have looked through so many lately that I need to make a list.

    I also forgot Campesino as well as, Lavita and Liocalyon all come from excellent motherlines.
    Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
    " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
    Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.

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    • #42
      Loma Mare Line

      Does anyone have more information on the Loma mare line?
      What do you think of a stallion whose dam, grand dam and great grand dam are all loma mares?
      Best Regards
      Ken Wong
      Toronto, Ontario, Canada
      www.StarStallions.com

      Comment


      • #43
        Kathy Hickerson would be the one to ask about the Loma line.

        Here is where the Dutch forum on e-warmbloods would be handy.
        www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

        Comment


        • #44
          Routinier is another stallion with an exceptional mare line. He comes from the Cinderella family that produced First Class, winner of the Bundechampionship, among other stallions.
          www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

          Comment


          • #45
            Loma

            Originally posted by canwong View Post
            Does anyone have more information on the Loma mare line?
            What do you think of a stallion whose dam, grand dam and great grand dam are all loma mares?
            Hey Ken,

            The Loma dam line has produced 27 approved stallions. (maybe more?
            These include Furore (Ahorn), Hattrick (Ahorn), Tenerife VDL (Raphael),
            Whister (Holland), Simon Bolivar, Troostwyk, Tristan, Bourban, Mural,
            Hattrick, Farrington, Hallreck, Graaf and Kigali (Wolfgang), Kigali (KWPN),
            Al Dente (Westphalian), and Lorenzo (AES).

            Yours in sport,

            Lynn
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
            Suerte Hostage Crisis Survivor
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            Comment


            • #46
              I think Wonderful's dam line is pretty nice. It was part of a mare family tree analysis in one of Der Hannoveraner issues before. A quick browsing around in the allbreedpedigree.com. A few stallion producers.

              Duellgirl-Fockee-Fega
              Bonny-Arka-Duellgirl-Fockee-Fega
              Bonga-Arka-Duellgirl-Fockee
              Arosa-Bonga-Arka-Duellgirl-Fockee
              Wendolina-Ferngirl-Duellgirl-Fockee-Fega
              Berolina-Wendolina-Ferngirl-Duellgirl-Fockee-Fega
              Duelljuwel-Fockee-Fega

              From the limited set of data, it appears the mare line is now producing in Denmark and Belgium.
              Violet
              Wonderful Sport Horses
              http://www.1derful.com
              http://www.facebook.com/1derful

              Comment


              • #47
                I believe a specactular dam-line comes from the stallion O Quidam Junior. In the Selle Francais, this dam-line is suppose to be THE best. Here is the link to his dam line: http://www.paardenfokken.nl/family.php?horseid=293958
                There are quite a few ISH.

                Another dam-line that I think is almost spectacular (and I must admit that I am partial to) is my mare, Dorina H. Her line is older and shorter, but for showjumping, it is considered top notch. We'll know in a few years if her colt is stallion worthy. Here is the link for her dam-line: http://www.paardenfokken.nl/family.php?horseid=381979

                And last, but certainly NOT least - a spectacular dam - Jete, who is dam of stallions, Balta' Czar and Aslan, stallion prospect, Fidelio and my filly, Giada. Here is her dam-line: http://www.paardenfokken.nl/family.php?horseid=152507
                Anney Daugherty
                Winsmore Farm
                www.winsmorefarm.com

                Comment


                • #48
                  EquineLVR it is the strength of pedigree of Cotopaxi that first caught notice with some European interests lately. This month AHHA ran the old Breeding News for Sport Horses article on the now more commonly accepted and published account of Capitano , sire of Capitol I , being incorrectly identified in pedigrees as being Corporal and now is more commonly acknowledged as the young stallion Grand Vikar whom was by another Cottage Son xx stallion named Colonel. This makes Colonel the progenator which Cottage Son traces through in Capitol I 's legacy. Read the article in the current issue:

                  http://holsteiner.com/ImpulsionIssues/Issues.htm

                  Well in Cotopaxi's pedigree you find Colonel sire of the great Bahlmann stamm 776 mare Colonia (Cotopaxi's maternal grand dam) up close in Cotopaxi's maternal line as well as represented through Carbano /Carthago/Capitol I/Capitano/Grand Vikar linebreeding through Colonel to Cottage Son xx.

                  Since the heritage of Capitol I is now confirmed in publications in Germany, I think the importance of Colonel has never properly been identified until now. I have heard there is a two year wait for stamm 776 foals from Bahlmann farm, I can only surmise the strength indeed can be attributed much to the damline.

                  Lisa, Synergy Sporthorses
                  Home to Holstein Cotopaxi and Hanoverian Raffaello
                  http://www.synergysporthorses.net

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Our foundation mare SP Radunja is from the same damline as Fabuleux (she also produced an Elite mare for me Halleluja (His Highness).. so we now have 7 direct generation of SP/EM status in our barn and hoping the other filly we held back (Don Frederico) will also follow in their footsteps when she gets older).

                    Anyway, there exists another stallion from that damline (in addition to Fabuleux), he is Don Presidente: Dauphin/ SPS Floria Tosca (Fabriano); 2005; 16.1 (166cm); Dark Chestnut. Although he is still in Germany his frozen semen is available from the Celle. This is the first year his semen is available.

                    I might add the same breeder (Klaus and Inge Kuhn) sold a Londonderry mare at the elite auction last year at an unbelivable price to the barn of Isabell Werth, the German Olympian!!. The Hannoverian Verband originally introduced me to the Kuhn's and their States Premium mares years ago. I wouldn't hesitate to breed to anything they have produced and am thankful to have been allowed to puchase one of their fillies!
                    HiddenAcresFarm.Net
                    Imported from Germany, Assembled in Michigan
                    Rare damline of 7 direct generations of Elite/States Premium Mares.

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                    • #50
                      I love the damline of Fabuleux!!

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        HiddenAcres,
                        You do have a fabulous foundation mareline to base your program around, no doubt! How is that Don Frederico filly turning out btw??
                        www.svhanoverians.com

                        "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          There's a Hannoverian mare named Wiesenfreude who isn't too shabby. Her daughter Galena was the dam of Famm, dam of Shutterfly, Let's Fly, and the stallion Sir Shutterfly. Galena's full brother was/is Glucksstern, who is in quite a few pedigrees, per Paardenfokken.
                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                          Thread killer Extraordinaire

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            http://www.jens-meyer.com/cms/front_...t=74&idart=456

                            Hows that for a damline ?
                            www.svhanoverians.com

                            "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              What an absolutely fascinating discussion!

                              I have imported 2 to add to my personal mare base........
                              Nina, an elite Dutch mare (Voltaire/Wellington) from a long line of elite mares was bred to Contendro while still in Germany and I have kept her 2006 Contendro/Voltaire filly to hopefully go to the MPT and continue in mom's huge footprints. Nina also had a phenomenal Landor S filly that I was forced to sell to pay for importation and vet bills. I would like to breed her to Landwerder next as he is a full brother and the stellar damlines on both sides are just what is called for.

                              AND.......Kurtaxe (Lordanos/Lanor S/Zeus). Purchased at the 2007 Elite foal auction, she is branded Oldenburg International. I know that some will never understand, but she will probably never get an undersaddle career.........I hope to show her more in hand and have babies that will continue her already impressive motherlines.

                              While I have other mares, these are the ones that when they have fillies, you keep them. Generations of great dams are what define a breeder.
                              Holly
                              www.ironhorsefrm.com
                              Oldenburg foals and young prospects
                              LIKE us on Facebook!

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                              • #55
                                Breed the best and ride the rest.

                                That's what I did with my two mares tho I regret their not having basic riding training so that they would have a job if the poor economy dictates no breeding.
                                www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

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                                • #56
                                  What qualifies for spectacular?

                                  I am noit sure what qualifies for spectacular? I am not sure if it is an exact term. Also, sometimes an outstanding jumper comes from outstanding dressage dam-lines and vica-versa. Sometimes an outstanding soprthorse comes from a "spectacular" TB dam line. In Europe there is a culture of cultivating these mare lines and it is easier to identify them because they have kept meticulous records for many generations. The prime example of this is the Holsteiner "stamm" number, which is a number assigned to every new mareline entered into breeding, then the top lines are valued (like stamm 776). Sometimes, when a mare becomes a spectacular producer, as a recognition, gets her own sub-line, or sub-sub-line (like 474A or 18A2). Here, in the States, with the original Warmblood breeding based on TB mares, the AHHA started tracking the TB mare lines with a "Q" designation.

                                  My best TB mare, Key Moment (stamm: Q0604) has s spectaculat TB racing breeding, but her ancestors certainly did nothing in the sporthorse world. Her sire, For the Moment was 2nd in the Kentucky Derby. He was by What a Pleasure, who in turn was by Bold Ruler. On the mother line, Key Moment's dam's sire was Key to the Mint, who is a very well regarded sire of racing broodmares. But to know what this mare could do for me based on those lines? I picked her because she had super conformation and looked like a perfect, athletic warmblood mare. She went to a TB breeding program directly from the track - but when I saw her, I was floored. Then the then-owners yanked her out of the herd, threw a western saddle on her - and I rode her down a gravel road in Northern Iowa...in perfect form: cool, on the bit, round and through, leg-yielding effortlessly, responding to my slightest aids (the trainer who started her in Kentucky must have been one heck of a horseman). then, I jumped her over a few haybales in the front yard and bought her on the spot. So I aquired her based on conformation, movement, rideability and temperament, rather than bloodlines.

                                  What she produced for me is incredible: Her first foal for me, Minden by Lemgo, became a perfomance tested Premium mare, i showed her 2nd level dressage, and to level 3 jumpers as a young horse...then I sold her to a 65 year-old amateur lady rider, who went from being a backyard rider, being deadly terrified of horses to someone who has been spending the winters in Wellington (and BELONGS there). Minden has produced two premium, site champion mares for me by Ariadus, and a colt by Camiros (who, unfortunately, after i sold him as a weanling, developed terrible locking stiffles that only got a little better with work, see my post on the subject). Her second foal, also by Lemgo, became my flagship stallion, Lotus T: 3rd at the 100-day testing at the age of 4, with a broken neck, behind two 7YO stallions, successful 2nd year-green and reg. working hunter, open jumper and a spectacular dressage horse - who is AHHA, BWP and RPSI approved, producing countless of premium foals and great sporthorses (often out of inferior TB, appendix and arabian mares). Then Key Moment produced two Trakehner babies by Veneziano, who became excellent dressage horses, now taking care of their very competitive amateur and child riders. Her daughter, Karona produced Glimmerglass, a 76-point premium BWP gelding, currently breing started under saddle. Then, Key Moment produced Galiba, a premium Belgian WB mare by Lasting Impression, who became a site champion Premium mare for the Holsteiners at the age of 2 1/2, also getting good scores for free-jumping. She is now preparing for a three-day career. Her last foal, by Cisco, is owned by an adult amateur jumper, and she is slated for a jumper career. Now, this may not be as "spectacular" as one would think, but under the US reality it's not too bad. The problem is that her mare-line (stamm Q0604) will probably stop here, because of the economic reality forced me to sell her fillies at an early age. Hopefully those will find their way back into the breeding pool once their sports career is over and maybe someone on the COTH bulletin board, 50 years from now, will classify this mare-line as "spectacular".

                                  Andras
                                  www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                                  Andras
                                  http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
                                  http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

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                                  • #57
                                    I think that's a spectacular TB mare.

                                    So much of this is a crap shoot, getting horses into the right homes where they have an opportunity.
                                    www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Agree, Oakstable

                                      Originally posted by Oakstable View Post
                                      I think that's a spectacular TB mare.

                                      So much of this is a crap shoot, getting horses into the right homes where they have an opportunity.
                                      I agree that it is a crapshoot. On the other hand good breeders have a feeling what they produce way before it is "proven" publicly. If we are able to share this information, remain objective and open to each other, everybody will benefit from it (before our horses or us, breeders are dead).

                                      Andras
                                      www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                                      Andras
                                      http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
                                      http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Andras, I might disagree on Key Moment's ancestors having done nothing in the sporthorse world. Maybe her American ancestors haven't, but most of her lines are well accepted in WB books in Europe and have been for generations. What A Pleasure, For The Moment and Key Bridge/Key to the Mint have been well loved in hunters for years.

                                        BTW, she is linebred on Concertina with Friar's Daughter, Bois Roussel and Bull Dog (Plucky Liege). And also on Mumtaz Mahal. And Solario/Sundridge, along with Nearco and Teddy.

                                        Her pedigree screams sport horse if given a chance.
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                        • #60
                                          i am gald andras came up with the question "what qualifies for spectacular?" - as what most people consider "spectatcular" is not what makes up for a damline of excellence (a term tom form morningside once created and i guess it describes the real value of a "spectacular" damline much better).

                                          as damlines of excellence in many cases consist of dams (mares) you would most certainly not consider "specatcular" if you see them. you might not even spend a second look at some of these mares. their real value lies in their heritage and the power of passing it on consistantly. not necessarily show beauties.

                                          next big question of definition is timeframe.
                                          fact that a certain mare/damline has produced a handful of licensed stallions (or st.pr.mares) in the last couple of years is nice but doesn't mean much. as licensings are show titles, no more. so are st.pr.titles. record of performance is not given at licensings or st.pr.inspections. rather than naming numbers of licensed stallions descending from a certain damline you are much better off coming up with a number of succesful sporthorses descending from that damline or - and here we come to the value of licensed stallions - with a high density of succesful progeny sired by stallions descending from a certain damline. this is where the real multiplicator lies.

                                          and even with respect to sport success the sword cuts both ways:
                                          a single international son/daughter descending form any stallion/damline is not a tribute but rather a stigma. as it might suggest these horses can only be ridden by professionals.

                                          damline of excellence to me is a damline that has produced succesful sport horses (ideally both disciplines) and a big number of sporthorses in basic classes (ridden by amateurs, that is) plus stallions who again are known for producing ridable get.

                                          boils it down to a very handful damlines that i would consider being of "excellence".
                                          at least those of famous recognition.

                                          as such, i would exclude the damline of quaterback (i am naming him since he was mentioned here) for exactly the a.m. reasons:
                                          spectacular selling young horses but no future references with respect to relyable performance of a single horse in high classes. the prominent examples of this damline have been ridden by riders of above "excellence" status - and no, you and i wouldn't want to have been in these saddles at various warm up areas when genius met insanity in many cases.
                                          lack of broad density of succesful get in basic/amateur classes, yet, too.

                                          same for florestan. he was mentioned in this topic aside weltmeyer as an example for a stallion form a "spectacular" damline.
                                          i used to think that way too.
                                          specially when i attended at various venues where his breeder was awarded.
                                          i was listening to the speaker waiting for a number of succesful sporthorses being named, there weren't any.
                                          it made me curious, i researched my old yearbooks - given this damline has been established twenty-thirty years ago and various daughters have been added to the broodmare herd i expected at least one or two dozens of sporthorses having arised from that damline over the last two decades.
                                          i found one intl competing horse by a stallion of "excellence" and i do know horse&rider.
                                          the man "produces" GP horses in dozens himself - under saddle that is. no matter what breed or how they were bred.
                                          however, i did find some numbers of licensed stallions and even more so remarkable numbers of st.pr.titles in my yearbooks.
                                          show titles.
                                          no more.
                                          show titles are political.
                                          so florestan to me is a perfect example of a stallion descending from a "decent" damline surely having outgrown the value of his damline by sheer number of succesful get and fact that he has gained the status quo of a stamp-stallion for himself.
                                          same is true for fidermark, his son.

                                          i would put weltmeyer in the same bracket. having done research on his damline i didn't find much. nothing that would in any way justify the magnificent and dominant status quo weltmeyer himself gained in the hannoverian breed - hanover wouldn't be where it is without weltmeyer.

                                          what does that tell us?
                                          breeding is an art, not a science (anotherone by tom and it is so right!)

                                          but you can minimize the dominance of "coincidence" and move "succes of breeding" slightly away from "art" and closer to "science" by seriously understanding damlines IF ANY are given. as any damline needs to start somewhere off scratch.

                                          just because there isn't any "known" doesn't mean production needs to be poor.
                                          and the other way round:
                                          just because you breed with a horse form a damline of excellence doesn't grant superior production either.
                                          but it certainly helps and as a famous man once put it:
                                          a damline of excellence can easily cope with a single or maybe two stallions of suboptimal quality before its inherent value becomes deluted in and for further generations.

                                          i would most certainly refer to the damline of fabuleux (who was named here, too) as a damline of excellence. small, though, but excellent.
                                          even more so since this family is based on a t.b. mare and that somewhat deserves them a status of uniqueness on top.
                                          when i came across fabuleux in american forums i tracked down his damline and finally found his breeders webside - i follow it year by year and it has become one of my favourite studying/learning websides. something i would consider a very well taken care of damline and it obviously does gain recognition within the hanoverian breeding culture, too.

                                          and it does prove better than anything else that once a damline of excellenc has been established it bearly matters what kind of stallion you cross - they do seem to produce well with any kind of stallion. time will tell to what extend the products of this damline arising from all kind of stallions later on maintain their inherent value and pass it on to future generations consistently as a multiplicator - that is the point when a damline starts to "split" up to branches of higher or lesser value. owed to the stallion, i guess. and it takes a lot of time to tell. two or three generations are surely not enough.

                                          my very personal favoruite damline of excellence (and since the starter of the topic was asking for hannoverian damlines) is the one of max schulz, breeder of brentano I&II, wolkenstein I&II&III, garibaldi I&II, many sporthorses over decades, some of them intl, consistently producing. old damline that has been spread out over the last ten years or so but every once in a while a promising youngster at licensings or inspections pops up and even if of lesser spectacularity:
                                          ridability and mind is their common share.
                                          used to be a nice article about it in the breeding magazin:
                                          http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDIN.../max_shulz.htm
                                          http://hippologi.com

                                          http://muensterland-pferde.de

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