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WHAT would YOU think? if you saw your horse w/this bit/rider PHOTO UPDATE???

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  • WHAT would YOU think? if you saw your horse w/this bit/rider PHOTO UPDATE???

    Being too 'old' (and chicken) to start our young horses under saddle anymore, we sent our youngster to a person a friend spoke highly of,just to start her under saddle lightly..Quietly, so we could finish her here at home...
    We got a photo back after 3 1/2 weeks. after we had spoken briefly with this 'trainer' about the progress , she said she had ground driven the youngster for the first 3 weeks, had her whoeing well, turning, backing in the lines, trotting and cantering in the lines, pulling a log (????) and getting on a platform (more ??????? oh well)....We decided for $$ reasons and because we had a prospective buyer to pick up the horse after one month and called her and told her...she seemed disappointedwe were taking the horse home and then she sent us a photo of her first ride....
    It showed our horse coming towards us, the trainer was in shorts and sneakers, and the animal was bitted up IN A BROKEN PELHAM WITH LONG SHANKS, above and below the mouthpiece.....we were horrified......
    any thoughts on this?????? anyone else seen this 'out there' , are we dinosaurs or justified to be shocked??? (this trainer was not a 'cheap try' by the way, but market for here at around $800/mo.....and her place was gorgeous and spotless)and p.s., our horse looked awfully thin....we now feel horrible we did not question her when we left our horse as to her methods, but being retired trainers, and having a good recomend from a friend....we just didn't think of it.......NO MORE!!!
    We are picking her up Tues.............................
    Last edited by ancientoaks; Jun. 18, 2008, 07:52 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by ancientoaks View Post
    she said she had ground driven the youngster for the first 3 weeks, had her whoeing well, turning, backing in the lines, trotting and cantering in the lines, pulling a log (????) and getting on a platform (more ??????? oh well)....
    I think the pulling and the platform are wonderful wonderful things to teach a youngster I have never taught one to pull but the more things they learn are safe to drag behind them, and the more willing they are to get up on things (or go under/around/through), the better IMHO

    the animal was bitted up IN A BROKEN PELHAM WITH LONG SHANKS, above and below the mouthpiece.....we were horrified......
    I would have had about seven cows
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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    • #3
      I would be horrified as well and would NEVER use or recommend this person again. There is no excuse for having a just started horse in a shank bit....ever. And on top of it, I would not be using a stoneboat on a horse who is unfit, it is quite stressful on the loin/ls area.
      www.svhanoverians.com

      "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

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      • #4
        We start many youngsters here, and yes I would be horrified! I just wouldn't start any horse in any bit other than a rubber bit or loose ring snaffle. We too do a good bit of driving because it in an essential part of breaking, but would not tie things to horse ever. I'm sure it's a great tool for some. But I wouldn't want to be the one to call an owner and say, sorry your horse got mangled today, but he ran off with a log behind him and plowed through three fences. I really won't comment about shorts and sneakers.

        I'm not really big into how much you can cram into a time frame. It's however long it takes the horse to be confident with each step. Trust and confidence set a youngster up for life, if they are treated as such when they go home as well. As far as being a bit skinny, sometimes it happens if work load is increased and being fed a set amount of whatever. They will start doing growth wise when started as well, unless they're 10, so it's something I always try to keep in mind too. Maybe we are old fashioned, but doing things correctly and happily is all we are looking for. Pulling logs and stepping up platforms really isn't something we would incorporate. Riding out of the arena in fields and trails, getting use to traffic, but not stuff they probably won't do ever.

        Everyone has their own way of doing things and I wouldn't say we would be more right than anyone else. Bit choice and clothing options wouldn't have given me great confidence but they sound as if they weren't abused or handled badly. So just see what you have when you get home. A bit skinny isn't doing any damage to them. They might have just hit a growth spurt which is nobody's fault.

        Terri
        COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ancientoaks View Post
          she sent us a photo of her first ride....
          It showed our horse coming towards us, the trainer was in shorts and sneakers, and the animal was bitted up IN A BROKEN PELHAM WITH LONG SHANKS, above and below the mouthpiece.....we were horrified......
          any thoughts on this?????? ...
          ***Hack****Cough*****Gag****

          *headdesk*headdesk* Wow... you didn't know that was the "in" thing to do these days you are soooo out of the loop......

          I would have turned inside out and spontaneously combusted upon looking at the picture.
          Draumr Hesta Farm
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          • #6
            Horses need to go forward, not backwards - mentally and physically. We break them in fat snaffles. Most problems with starting young horses comes from too much "stop" and backwards thinking. I would be very upset.

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            • #7
              I would be horrified. I just can't imagine.... I also can't for the life of me, figure out why anyone would want to ride a baby in that type of bit. I have started many, many babies over the years - most of them racehorse, quite a few of them being pretty rank - and for every one of them I used either a eggbutt KK bean center, a loose ring wrapped with Sealtex, or no bit at all, just a side pull with the nose band wrapped in Vetwrap. In my opinion there just isn't a reason to use a harsh bit on ANY youngster.
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              • #8
                I'd be horrified, too. Definitely need to check recommendations - whether they come from friends or strangers.
                Mary Lou
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                Member OMGiH I loff my mares clique

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                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  well thank you.....everyone echoed OUR feelings AND experiences in over 40 years of starting young horses (OH the horrors of growing too old to back em!!!)....snaffle snaffle...and the scary thing is, IF we were to say anything(which I don't see the point) these people often CALL this bit a 'snaffle' in the walking horse world (which we are in the middle of)......but this 'trainer' was not a walking horse trainer, as far as we were told.....shame on us...for not looking past the nice barn, fat horses (and one poster is absolutely right about the thinness,there are alot of causes for this, none may be the trainer's fault.. it's the LEAST of our concerns) and quiet manner....
                  I doubt she has been harmed in any way, but ......it will be interesting to see what we have after we return home Tues......
                  I am just glad to hear that there are still many people out there who believe in doing things 'the old fashioned way', the right way...preserve the integrity and trust of the horse NOW, don't hurt or rush them, and you will reap the rewards (or someone else will!) for a lifetime..

                  by the way, a spin off on this, and also part of the 'situation' here....do you trainers communciate regularly with your owners? and Owners, have you had a good, fair or poor experience in this regard? Regular updates, returning/returned phone calls and/or emails, and occasional photo that is NOT asked for, etc etc???? We would NEVER think of 'just dropping in' but when phone calls and emails are not returned in a timely way, what then??
                  How IS the training business doing these days? I know what WE did, but boy that was eons ago!...
                  AND, where do we go from here? Would anyone expect that this youngster is 'safe' enough or far along enough for us to continue with? as in on her back? We had, in fact, started her ourselves in the long lines prior to bringing her to the trainer....
                  Does anyone know of a good young horse trainer in our Middle Southeastern U.S. area????? as if the horse business wasn't hard enough..........

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                  • #10
                    Wow, ancient oaks, you wouldn't happen to be in the Winston-Salem area of NC, would you? I sent a tough pony away to someone like that (not the long shanked curb thing -- I'd indicated I wouldn't tolerate anything but a snaffle, bosal or sidepull), but the platform, pulling, shorts and tank-top rang a bell. Nice young-ish lady, but English ONLY in a "western way." She did send pictures, no horrors depicted, but one showed a guy on my little 13-hander, rider's legs almost dragging on the ground!

                    But she was inexpensive and the pony was nuts and going to kill someone--and I didn't want it to be me or anyone I knew, and she was convinced she could handle him, which she did. He came back no less nuts, but broke and able to make progress without hurting anyone.

                    I'm not sure I'd totally write off your long-shank trainer. If all else went well, the person may have the touch, but just not the education. If they are the earnest, honest type, they should be willing to learn other ways and accept your preferences, like the person I used did. I suppose it depends on your needs. I'm not sure I'd send anything I thought highly of to someone I didn't know or who didn't come with a lot of good, detailed references. But sometimes you may need a special situation due to the beastie or other aspects of your situation.
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                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by pwynnnorman View Post
                      Wow, ancient oaks, you wouldn't happen to be in the Winston-Salem area of NC, would you? I sent a tough pony away to someone like that (not the long shanked curb thing -- I'd indicated I wouldn't tolerate anything but a snaffle, bosal or sidepull), but the platform, pulling, shorts and tank-top rang a bell. Nice young-ish lady, but English ONLY in a "western way." She did send pictures, no horrors depicted, but one showed a guy on my little 13-hander, rider's legs almost dragging on the ground!

                      But she was inexpensive and the pony was nuts and going to kill someone--and I didn't want it to be me or anyone I knew, and she was convinced she could handle him, which she did. He came back no less nuts, but broke and able to make progress without hurting anyone.

                      I'm not sure I'd totally write off your long-shank trainer. If all else went well, the person may have the touch, but just not the education. If they are the earnest, honest type, they should be willing to learn other ways and accept your preferences, like the person I used did. I suppose it depends on your needs. I'm not sure I'd send anything I thought highly of to someone I didn't know or who didn't come with a lot of good, detailed references. But sometimes you may need a special situation due to the beastie or other aspects of your situation.
                      no, not N.C., Tennessee........
                      This gal is an older one, nice and quiet...but I just cannot put myself in an 'advisery' mode, already feel bad enough we didn't investigate further...but...being former trainers it just seemed 'wrong' to ask things like....what bit do you use (who would have THUNK IT??????) AND do you ride in proper clothing....don't get me wrong, I am not a 'fashion guru, but SNEAKERS? and even if that's your style in private, why send a photo like that to an owner??...it is just an indication I guess of lack of knowledge and professionalism, and you are right, she is probably eminently teachable, but ......one cannot just walk in and start 'advising'...I suppose we could just tell her we want the horse in a snaffle and keep her there.but who knows what the reaction to this 'advice' would be??...but we were just so shocked .....
                      and our friend, who did the recommending.....we didn't think to question her either....it just never came up...it was just so crazy....
                      I think the horse is fine....but can see nothing progressive from here with this kind of methodry.....so we start our search AGAIN.....

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                      • #12
                        You said you would never drop in? If I had a horse out for training and didn't feel like I was welcome to drop in I would look further. The way I see it is it's my horse and I am paying for you to work with it but if you do not want me to see my horse between the time I drop him off and the time I pick him up I am going to assume you are doing something that I am not going to approve of. And yes, I am paying the trainer to do a job but part of that is the method they use. Otherwise I would get some brave kid from the barn to get up there (j/k lol).

                        That being said, I am not really rude on purpose so I would def. call and set up an appointment to see the horse if it was living on someone's small private farm for training but if this was a large boarding facility that happens to have a trainer I like then I would have no problem dropping in as long as I was following the barn rules, etc. However, I would not expect the trainer to drop what he/she was doing to ride my horse for me if I showed up unexpectedly (I have def seen this happen....so rude...who do you think you are?)

                        As to the question at hand, while the barn I am with does not have a large training program occasionally a young horse will come in to be worked with. We have two right now and one other who was here in the last year. Owners were encouraged to come out and be apart of the overall process if they want to. Some do (and get really excited about it), some don't care, some think we are crazy. Communication is always open. Email is most often used but sometimes phone updates, etc. Pictures when someone remembers but our trainer has her camera with her at all times and is constantly recruiting someone to snap a couple at critical times or of them just hanging around in the pasture.

                        LOL...my typing up this post was interrupted by one of our training horses owners knocking on the front door. She was in the area and came by to see what was going on (she lives just under two hours away but has business in the area every couple of weeks). The trainer is not currently here but that was not the critical part of the trip. To her it is hard to send her baby off and being able to drop by whenever is pretty important.
                        There are stars in the Southern sky and if ever you decide you should go there is a taste of time sweetened honey.

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                        • #13
                          What would I think?
                          I'd be so pissed I wouldn't be able to think anything at all.
                          "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

                          "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x

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                          • #14
                            I am lucky to have a fantastic young horse trainer only two hours away from me. I've never used anyone else, so I can only share what our communication is like. I visit my horse every other weekend; if I were closer I would drop in more often. I always e-mail ahead of time and let my trainer know I'm coming, as a courtesy. Sometimes she is there and sometimes she isn't, she always lets me know either way. On the weeks that I don't visit I will usually e-mail trainer once to get an update. Often she e-mails me before I get a chance. If something very important has happened (like a few weeks ago when he decided to jump out of his paddock and scraped up his legs) then she of course calls me ASAP. She will also call me if she has a particularly good ride/reaches a big milestone, mostly b/c she is as excited as a good ride for him as I am. Here's the catch though; I'm the only client who has a horse with her right now. She has 3 of her own that she actively campaigns and has scaled way back due to other life circumstances. I'm sure if she had a barn full I wouldn't get quite so much one-on-one attention. She is, however very accomplished and took two horses to the Young Horse Dressage Championships last year (or whatever they're called, I do jumpers ).
                            Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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                            • #15
                              Are you SURE it was a pelham and not a 3 ring elevator?

                              The latter is just a loose ring with a little leverage and can be just as mild depending on the hands using it.

                              That said, my babies all start in a rubber D.
                              I gotta do-over and am doin it my way!!!

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                              • #16
                                Boy, Ancientoaks, when I hear stories like these, I just want to get down on my knees and thank the Lord for the wonderful young trainer I have with my baby (3 y.o.) He is an advanced 3-day eventer, that has a knack for the youngsters. My filly goes in a fat, KK loose-ring snaffle. She has a very relaxed jaw and foams nicely each ride. She is very willing so it would be easy to push her too far, too fast. He rides her each day for short periods and keeps her in a routine. I was riding her one week after he started her. I'm an older adult amateur, but I bred this baby. Just yesterday cominig in from the pasture, he hopped on her bareback with the halter and lead and walked her back. Very sensible baby.

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by BBowen View Post
                                  Boy, Ancientoaks, when I hear stories like these, I just want to get down on my knees and thank the Lord for the wonderful young trainer I have with my baby (3 y.o.) He is an advanced 3-day eventer, that has a knack for the youngsters. My filly goes in a fat, KK loose-ring snaffle. She has a very relaxed jaw and foams nicely each ride. She is very willing so it would be easy to push her too far, too fast. He rides her each day for short periods and keeps her in a routine. I was riding her one week after he started her. I'm an older adult amateur, but I bred this baby. Just yesterday cominig in from the pasture, he hopped on her bareback with the halter and lead and walked her back. Very sensible baby.
                                  well, I would love to know where this trainer is...or anyone else who has had great experience...we would happily send this youngster off to be finished right...as we are not sure the 'training' is at a point right now we are comfortable (husband is 71 and doesn't need any broken bones from a scared young horse)...with getting onboard..
                                  WE call this a broken pelham (there was no doubt it was a pelham , however the shanks were rather longer than, say a Tom Thumb, especially ABOVE the mouthpiece, it's a common bit seen in these parts on walking horses AND sometimes they don't even use a curb chain!!...just let it flop about..THAT we could not see from the photo....was afraid to ask since we could not get up there until Tues)

                                  and what I meant about 'dropping in', since it is a small, personal barn we would never just show up without notice unless we had reason to believe there was a problem..we would always call first...It's so hard to have owners drop in when you are busy riding 5-8 horses a day , as we were in the 'old days'....one would have to take time to be cordial, and when you have alot of horses to ride, one client just showing up can sure mess up the schedule....
                                  Remember, we had just sent this horse three weeks ago, so to us, it was time to leave the horse and trainer alone for a bit in order for everyone to get relaxed and in a routine..
                                  What we have a problem with (and hear the same thing from others who have sent out a horse or two in other parts of the country) is that emails are rarely answered before 2-3 days...phone calls the same, as in we call and ask "how are things going? just curious on an update"...with emails the same....

                                  really would love some help here, to continue with the education on this lovely horse....

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                                  • #18
                                    Let's see...the Western world uses curb bits with shanks on a general basis - for very good reason....and they start their young horses in snaffles. Yeah, I would be upset.

                                    As far as communication goes, I feel bad if I don't give an update. My days of training as a full time job are currently in the past, but I still have two clients. One will ride with me and the one day she forgot to tell me not to come because she was doing something, I left a note that I had been there and spoke to her later that day about the ride. My other client is the owner of the barn where I keep my mare. If I ride and she is not around, I leave a note and talk to her about it the next time I see her.

                                    I have always been that way - at least weekly calls to give progress reports and I always encouraged owners to be a part of training. My goal was always to get the horse to the point where the owner could take over. I mostly worked with 'problem' horses, so it was more about working through issues or just starting green horses. Two horses I started are never ridden and it irritates me that I spent all that time on them - and they are nice horses - and all they do is sit in a field. To each their own what they do with horses, but I like to see something come from my own work. Why spend the money to have someone start your horse and then never ride it? GAH! Sorry, little rant.

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                                    • #19
                                      I like the person that I sent my horse to. I recommended him to several people and they all feel the same. There is no problem in keeping contact. He will call and update and we are made to feel that we can call at anytime. If I wanted to watch while my horse is being ridden, then I called to find out the time, but I could drop in at any time to visit. Also, he is pretty good at figuring if the horse is suitable for the type of rider that you are.

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                                      • #20
                                        My 3 year old is STILL in a broken RUBBER snaffle, and has started o/f. I would yank my horse out of there as quickly as possible and never look back! My trainer called me EVERY day with his progress while he was being started under saddle, and wanted me to come and watch as much as I could!!!!
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