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Sporthorse Vs. WB? And 'American bred'

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  • Sporthorse Vs. WB? And 'American bred'

    The "what registries does she qualify for?" thread has got me thinking...

    Can Americans experiment around with different types of bloodlines and still be in the ballpark? Yes, I think we can. Can we just haphazardly throw anything mixed together and call it the same without regard to genotype vs phenotype? No, I don't think we should.
    I sort of agree, and sort of disagree... If you are crossing Arab or TB on... well... anything not Arab, TB or draft... by some definitions, the result is a "warmblood." Of course, other definitions attach European bloodlines to the 'warmblood' moniker, and I'm sure when most of us see "WB" we *assume* European bred.

    Still other definitions will consdider a Draft X hotblood to be 'warmblood.'

    Then again, there are certainly some WB's with as much as 7/8ths or more TB.

    Are we doing a disservice to not separate "sporthorse" from WB in things like AWS?

    To me, and I think widely accepted, "Sporthorse" means a horse with the build and movement to do Dressage, CT, Jumping, Hunters, and usually includes Driving types. Almost all WB's that I can think of are sporthorses, but not all sporthorses are Wb's for sure!

    My final thought on the subject, is there is a lot of talk about "American Bred" horses and breeders... but somehow *I* just don't consider a foal "American bred" just because it lands on US soil... I wish AWS *or* AWR were more adamant about the horse being of AMERICAN BLOOD. Or where exactly *is* the association for that? When the frozen semen is from Europe, and the dam is imported, I just don't consider it "American bred." (MY OPINION OF COURSE!!!) Bred BY an American? Sure. Born in America... yeah...

    Where is the representation or promotion though of our really wonderful truly American breeds like ASB, QH, APHA... when they are crossed and are of beautiful SPORTHORSE type? AWS and/or AWR may inspect them, may approve them, may score them Blue Preferred or Elite or whatever, but they *aren't* really WB's in the most common sense of the word, they are SPORThorses...

    As a breeder of SPORThorses using Arabian, ASB, APHA, TB, Iberian and yes--Trakehner--blood... I sometimes wish my kids would 'fit in' more and be eligible for more--i.e. my stallion's 1/16th of ASB keeps him from any consideration of WB approveals, even though he's won SHIH and Meg Hamilton said "this is what they use in Europe for breed improvement." Of course, he woulnd't have his spots if he were pure Arabian--but he'd be eligible for a heck of a lot more consideration...

    Dunno. Just got me to thinking.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)
  • Original Poster

    #2
    The "what registries does she qualify for?" thread has got me thinking...

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Can Americans experiment around with different types of bloodlines and still be in the ballpark? Yes, I think we can. Can we just haphazardly throw anything mixed together and call it the same without regard to genotype vs phenotype? No, I don't think we should. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I sort of agree, and sort of disagree... If you are crossing Arab or TB on... well... anything not Arab, TB or draft... by some definitions, the result is a "warmblood." Of course, other definitions attach European bloodlines to the 'warmblood' moniker, and I'm sure when most of us see "WB" we *assume* European bred.

    Still other definitions will consdider a Draft X hotblood to be 'warmblood.'

    Then again, there are certainly some WB's with as much as 7/8ths or more TB.

    Are we doing a disservice to not separate "sporthorse" from WB in things like AWS?

    To me, and I think widely accepted, "Sporthorse" means a horse with the build and movement to do Dressage, CT, Jumping, Hunters, and usually includes Driving types. Almost all WB's that I can think of are sporthorses, but not all sporthorses are Wb's for sure!

    My final thought on the subject, is there is a lot of talk about "American Bred" horses and breeders... but somehow *I* just don't consider a foal "American bred" just because it lands on US soil... I wish AWS *or* AWR were more adamant about the horse being of AMERICAN BLOOD. Or where exactly *is* the association for that? When the frozen semen is from Europe, and the dam is imported, I just don't consider it "American bred." (MY OPINION OF COURSE!!!) Bred BY an American? Sure. Born in America... yeah...

    Where is the representation or promotion though of our really wonderful truly American breeds like ASB, QH, APHA... when they are crossed and are of beautiful SPORTHORSE type? AWS and/or AWR may inspect them, may approve them, may score them Blue Preferred or Elite or whatever, but they *aren't* really WB's in the most common sense of the word, they are SPORThorses...

    As a breeder of SPORThorses using Arabian, ASB, APHA, TB, Iberian and yes--Trakehner--blood... I sometimes wish my kids would 'fit in' more and be eligible for more--i.e. my stallion's 1/16th of ASB keeps him from any consideration of WB approveals, even though he's won SHIH and Meg Hamilton said "this is what they use in Europe for breed improvement." Of course, he woulnd't have his spots if he were pure Arabian--but he'd be eligible for a heck of a lot more consideration...

    Dunno. Just got me to thinking.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

    Comment


    • #3
      Do you think it would stop all the fussing/trashing if they changed the name to American Warmblood & Sporthorse Society?

      Comment


      • #4
        And to add to this confusion in the USA in Canada we have a breed of horse called the "Canadian Sport Horse". Not an association or breed registry but an actual breed of horse that is being developed and is named the CSH.

        Comment


        • #5
          I that would be a good name change
          Draumr Hesta Farm
          "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
          Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

          Comment


          • #6
            Pintopiaffe, I'm slightly off topic, but if I read all of your post correctly, you have touched on something that I'm trying to change. Is your stallion registered as a half-arab?

            If so, your stallion would be elligible for approval at least with OLD NA/ ISR if AHA would change their registration papers to include the non-arab parents pedigree. I figure if I can get other people besides myself to talk to AHA maybe they'll change things. After all how hard can it be to add 4 more lines to a pedigree?

            Comment


            • #7
              Fairview-
              Yes...I think that name change might help a lot of people find both places for their horses and help define the two a little better...maybe even two separate sections of the registry, one for sporthorses, one for warmbloods...
              Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
              www.crestlinefarm.com
              Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio

              Comment


              • #8
                You make some good points and touch on some of my feelings/beliefs too. I also breed a type of American Sport Horse...and while they are a purebred breed, I wish there was a better fit for them in a performance based registry as well. ASPR really isn't the right fit...my horses are just that...horses... albeit small ones. Some fall under 14:2 but genetically they are horses and most will be oversized.

                I think calling the registry American Sporthorse Society or whatever would be a nice solution to the "problem. The fact is they support American breeders and do support those of us who are not breeding traditional warmbloods as well. I seriously have considered registering my stock with them and might yet do so.

                Comment


                • #9
                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> My final thought on the subject, is there is a lot of talk about "American Bred" horses and breeders... but somehow *I* just don't consider a foal "American bred" just because it lands on US soil... I wish AWS *or* AWR were more adamant about the horse being of AMERICAN BLOOD. Or where exactly *is* the association for that? When the frozen semen is from Europe, and the dam is imported, I just don't consider it "American bred." (MY OPINION OF COURSE!!!) Bred BY an American? Sure. Born in America... yeah... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  Why do you want them to be adamant about a horse being of American blood? There is German blood in Irish horses, Dutch blood in German, and a veritable shmorgasborg of breeds used in the breeding of Selle Francais.

                  No one else seems to be ashamed of taking bloodlines from other countries and claiming the offspring as their very own, why the big taboo here?

                  I think it's been pointed out that when an American breeder registers their foal as Holsteiner, Hannoverian, etc..., and should that foal every do something significant internationally, it will be listed as an accomplishment first and foremost for THAT breed, not as an American bred.
                  Until someone breaks the pattern and registers really legitimate horses as the American Warmbloods they could be, breeders shouldn't complain when buyers decide to shop in Europe. Someone needs to have the cajones and patience to get American breds on the scoreboard.
                  Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Elly Schobel's Raison de Joie is national champion champion three year old for the USDF. He is an American Warmblood, and she has a fabulous FEI full brother.
                    Anne
                    -------
                    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, a name change would benefit the 'American' effort greatly. The 'American Sport Horse Society' for instance. Gets away from the 'warmblood' smugness.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is your stallion registered as a half-arab?

                        If so, your stallion would be elligible for approval at least with OLD NA/ ISR if AHA would change their registration papers to include the non-arab parents pedigree. I figure if I can get other people besides myself to talk to AHA maybe they'll change things. After all how hard can it be to add 4 more lines to a pedigree? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        Yes, he is reg'd IAHA (I still keep the 'I" in reference, not to be confused with Hannoverians in this forum!) but is 15/16ths Arabian.

                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> No one else seems to be ashamed of taking bloodlines from other countries and claiming the offspring as their very own, why the big taboo here?
                        </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                        I'm not really... I do take a little bit of issue with the case I cited--Imported mare, imported semen... (or vice versa! lol!) but otherwise, I'm more *looking* for the venue for the Morgan, QH, APHA, Appaloosa sporthorses... they might be crossed with WB's, might be crossed with Tb's, or might be purebred, but certainly there are excellent examples of SPORThorse type in these wonderful American breeds, and if we could just get together and breed like-to-like...

                        Daydream's horses are a prime example. You don't get much more American than the Mustang, or Spansih Colonial, but where does she fit in? Successful at Eventing and Dressage--they certainly are SPORThorses... but...

                        Yes, I do think that perhaps adding "Sporthorse" to the name WOULD help with some of the 'dissing' of the AWS and AWR. They are both, afterall, using quite strict approveal processes, either through inspections (which MINE anyway were as tough and thorough as the Tk Inspections I've seen!) or performance.

                        I've always said you don't need to be registered *anything* for HOY--and I *do* believe it.

                        OTOH, as a breeder, I'd love to get people to realize you don't HAVE to breed European to get SPORThorse. I'm always thrilled--and frankly still somewhat surprized--when my APHA/TB/Arab/ASB Crossbreds do so well against "the big dogs." I think it vindicates the breeding "like to like", but that's exactly what I'm wondering about...

                        I am ALL FOR the American breeder of Oldenburgs or Hannoverians, or Trakehners getting credit for it where credit is due.

                        But where do the true American breeds fit into the "American" registries when they are outcrossed for desired performance and traits?
                        InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So, "American Warmblood & Sporthorse Society" wouldn't be good enough? It would be the most valid name, and would include all that they are.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> *I* just don't consider a foal "American bred" just because it lands on US soil </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            That is the way warmblood breeding in europe is traditionally done. For instance, Weltmeyer is a hanoverian but used quite extensively in Oldenburg. His foals born in Oldenburg are registered Oldenburg so why shouldn't his foals be registered American if they are born here? Look at Ramiro. He is Holsteiner but used extensively (everywhere, really) by the KWPN as well as the Zangershiede in Belgian. As a result there are foals of his all over the world registered with various registries so why not here? Why is America so different. It is because the first warmblood breeders here in the U.S. didn't know any better. We are all a lot more educated to the "system" now but there is still resistence to setting it up properly. The breeders here are so adament about following the European system except in the way it matters most.

                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> AWS and/or AWR may inspect them, may approve them, may score them Blue Preferred or Elite or whatever, but they *aren't* really WB's in the most common sense of the word, they are SPORThorses...
                            </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            The AWR is not like the AWS. The AWR approves traditionally bred warmbloods. The AWR does not allow the pintos, ASBs, drafts, etc. They have approved a small number of stallions with QH blood but it is under their hunter division. I've said this before but again: the OldNa has also approved mares with QH blood as well as the Oldenburg Verband so even that part of the AWR is not so "un" traditional.

                            Too many people confuse the AWS and AWR. I believe calling pinto crosses and ASB crosses and even draft crosses a "warmblood" rankles a lot of people myself included. If the AWS changed their name to more of a sporthorse type name, it would sit better.

                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Elly Schobel's Raison de Joie is national champion champion three year old for the USDF </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                            Lets sing it from the rooftops!!! Maybe Siegib would join in.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think the American Warmblood and Sporthorse is good. As they do carry both in the society. Look at some of the stallions. They have both.
                              Draumr Hesta Farm
                              "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
                              Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But where do the true American breeds fit into the "American" registries when they are outcrossed for desired performance and traits? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


                                Wouldn't the ISR be the place? It is the International Sporthorse Registery. I believe they take all the different "outcrosses".

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by old dog:
                                  Elly Schobel's Raison de Joie is national champion champion three year old for the USDF. He is an American Warmblood, and she has a fabulous FEI full brother. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  And Meredith Michaels-Beerbaum's Stella is AWR as well. We have fabulous bloodlines and horses in this country now, it's time to capitalize on that!
                                  Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Wouldn't the ISR be the place? It is the International Sporthorse Registery. I believe they take all the different "outcrosses" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    As far as I know, and I'd love to be wrong... that's only for outcrosses of traditional German/European registries...

                                    My stallion isn't welcome there at this time. Nor are his foals out of NSH, TB, or Tk mares... that 1/16ths of ASB back in the woodpile--ironically where his colour comes from--disqualifies him from almost everything.
                                    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I was pretty sure the ISR took pintos, don't they? But they won't take something with ASB blood? Didn't know that. I thought they basically took anything sporthorse-like.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">OTOH, as a breeder, I'd love to get people to realize you don't HAVE to breed European to get SPORThorse. I'm always thrilled--and frankly still somewhat surprized--when my APHA/TB/Arab/ASB Crossbreds do so well against "the big dogs." I think it vindicates the breeding "like to like", but that's exactly what I'm wondering about... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        pintopiaffe, I have started to "temper" my dismay here with the consolation that those who make such a big deal of the WB/Europe/etc. thing are almost entirely breeders of dressage horses.

                                        I think we tend to forget that this BB is not representative, not by a long shot. Given the way dressage has, sadly, evolved in this country it has become nearly impossible to fit the square peg into the round hole--to the point where it really sounds like square breeders have practically given up trying. And they may be right.

                                        Competitive dressage has become only a distant cousin of that sport which once emphasized rewarding "training."
                                        Sportponies Unlimited
                                        Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

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