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Mountain lions and foals???

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  • #41
    We have coyotes in our area but I never see them unless they are dead on the side of the road. Still, I put up a foaling paddock with wire mesh close to the house and the foaling stall is fully enclosed. I'm sure they could get into the foaling paddock if they really wanted but it would take a bit of effort and probably would be seen if that happened during the day. The foals are up at night for their own protection. And honestly, I'm not protecting from coyotes as much as stray dogs. One of my neighbors lost a newborn foal to stray dogs before the mare could even stand. I had a pack of 6 dogs attack one of my own dogs on my own property. There were 2 or 3 more on the outskirts watching. They were definitely trying to kill him, he was severely injured and traumatized...had to drag him out of the house to go potty for three weeks and he is now dog aggressive. Can't blame the poor guy. They belong to a neighbor and are "tame" but when they get to running around in larger groups like this their natural hunting instincts take over just like wild dog packs. I raised serious hell and demanded reimbursement from the neighbor. I made sure to give him photos of what his dogs did to mine. He reimbursed me and he is now down to only two dogs which pretty well keep to themselves. But those aren't the only stray dogs around here so I keep doing as I was. No young foals outside at night. I wouldn't consider leaving them out all night around here until they were at least 3-4 months old unless they were kept in the foaling paddock with the wire mesh which is really well lit at night. I'd much rather let them be out 24/7 but you have to do what you have to do in order to keep them from being hurt or killed.

    I wouldn't count on dogs to do the protecting unless you had several and they were trained. If you decide to get donkeys make sure that they have been with foals before and were safe with them. Some donkeys are not nice to foals. A friend of mine almost lost a foal to a donkey many years ago.

    If you can, take photos of anything coming on your property so you can prove it to anyone if necessary. I took pictures of my neighbors dogs on my property and I would certainly want proof of the mountain lion that the rangers don't admit exist in your area.

    Please be careful with that mountain lion and good luck.
    Altamont Sport Horses
    Trakehners * Knabstruppers * Appaloosa Sport Horses
    Home of stallions: Ambrosius af Asgard "Atlantis" & Hollywood Hot Spot
    Birmingham, AL

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    • Original Poster

      #42
      We made it through the night fine. I got a new chesnut baby colt with 3 high socks and a blaze. Mom and baby are doing well.

      I've called Fish and Game twice. I'll call again if they don't call by noon. I'm going to contact the guys behind me too and have them go find the cat.

      For the short term, I'm going to look into the donkey's. Their inexpensive and easy to get.

      I also like the idea of the Anatolians. I know they're going to be expensive but maybe having 3 out there is what I need.

      Thanks for all the prayers and jingles. I felt fine coming down the road because I saw a squirrel and 3 jacks. But after reading your posts from last night it looks like plentiful game may not help that much. This does appear to be a young cat and maybe he's having trouble finding food and that's why he's hanging around. I hope not.
      Chris Misita
      www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
      To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
      Victor Hugo

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      • #43
        I am amazed at how many "animal "lovers out there are advocating killing the cat.
        Amazed and very disappointed.
        First of all, any responsible breeder takes responsibility and keeps their mares safe during foaling and their babies safe and protected and not out at night if there are predators, etc., lurking until they are several months old and big enough to fend a bit or at least run away fast. I have Coyotes and realize that although a coyote is very unlikely to take on a foal, a pack would not hesitate. We have also had Mountain Lion sightings and we have Bobcats. And I am thrilled that we do!
        Second, if you are going to get a dog to protect them, which is a great idea and I have seen the Protector dogs on the job at Alpaca farms and they are very cool, it needs to be at least two dogs.
        Even a team of Coyotes can kill a horse or another dog. Anything in a pack is dangerous, a pack of Dachshunds can run a deer to death...so get two protectors, not one.
        Lastly, I assume you live in redneck country since your local boys can not wait to have you state that you are "threatened" by this cat so she or he must be killed-their way to skirt around the law protecting the cat, which they are damn well aware of...I would tell you that you really owe the cat a chance and find a trapper, not a killer to deal with it, if you insist on doing anything at all.
        Personally, since you state you live near such a huge ranch, there is plenty of room for both you and the cat as long as you are a responsible owner, which, yes, sadly for you will mean more of your time and attention...but realize, that cat may have her own kittens she is providing for and if you have her killed you also kill her kittens. And that seems a very high price to pay for her walking along your fence line one day, don't you think?
        I suppose you can love your horses and not care about the other types of animals that have a right to exist but you might want to re-think your heart and your ethics here.
        There are many, many other solutions to this problem you see in your backyard and thank goodness everyone does not deal with issues the way it has been suggested here.
        And to the Ocala, Florida blogger, once upon a time you did have Florida Panthers but they have been killed off and are now believed to be extinct. In fact if there are any left in the Everglades, they are not certain that they are healthy enough to carry on another generation. Now that is something to fear...

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Showsheen View Post
          I am amazed at how many "animal "lovers out there are advocating killing the cat.
          Amazed and very disappointed.
          First of all, any responsible breeder takes responsibility and keeps their mares safe during foaling and their babies safe and protected and not out at night if there are predators, etc., lurking until they are several months old and big enough to fend a bit or at least run away fast. I have Coyotes and realize that although a coyote is very unlikely to take on a foal, a pack would not hesitate. We have also had Mountain Lion sightings and we have Bobcats. And I am thrilled that we do!
          Second, if you are going to get a dog to protect them, which is a great idea and I have seen the Protector dogs on the job at Alpaca farms and they are very cool, it needs to be at least two dogs.
          Even a team of Coyotes can kill a horse or another dog. Anything in a pack is dangerous, a pack of Dachshunds can run a deer to death...so get two protectors, not one.
          Lastly, I assume you live in redneck country since your local boys can not wait to have you state that you are "threatened" by this cat so she or he must be killed-their way to skirt around the law protecting the cat, which they are damn well aware of...I would tell you that you really owe the cat a chance and find a trapper, not a killer to deal with it, if you insist on doing anything at all.
          Personally, since you state you live near such a huge ranch, there is plenty of room for both you and the cat as long as you are a responsible owner, which, yes, sadly for you will mean more of your time and attention...but realize, that cat may have her own kittens she is providing for and if you have her killed you also kill her kittens. And that seems a very high price to pay for her walking along your fence line one day, don't you think?
          I suppose you can love your horses and not care about the other types of animals that have a right to exist but you might want to re-think your heart and your ethics here.
          There are many, many other solutions to this problem you see in your backyard and thank goodness everyone does not deal with issues the way it has been suggested here.
          And to the Ocala, Florida blogger, once upon a time you did have Florida Panthers but they have been killed off and are now believed to be extinct. In fact if there are any left in the Everglades, they are not certain that they are healthy enough to carry on another generation. Now that is something to fear...

          I do love animals and I really love HORSES.

          REALITY - cat will kill and eat foals. Foals can't be relocated, and are trapped in a nice neat corral for that cat to pick off one at a time. If you want to spend the money to trap and relocate the cat so it can live on, then drive on out there and do it. ADVICE TO HORSE OWNER - until Showsheen or someone that agrees with Showsheen actually shows up and traps that cat ... please have your gun ready and shoot on site.

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          • Original Poster

            #45
            Showsheen, I appreciate your love of animals and I love them too. You must have missed the 5 or more times I stated I was calling Fish and Game to help me with the problem.

            Mountain lions aren't endangered any more here. There's an abundance of them and a cat walking around, this close to town, who's used to traffic noise to the point I can drive almost right upon him, is a danger. Mountain lions do kill livestock and people. Hopefully Fish and Game will have someone come catch it and move it somewhere else. There's not enough room on my farm for me, and him.
            Chris Misita
            www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
            To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
            Victor Hugo

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            • #46
              This may have been suggested but I am too lazy to read all three pages. Donkeys and mules can make GREAT guard animals against predators.
              Celtic Pride Farm
              www.celticpridefarm.com
              Become a fan on Facebook!

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              • #47
                Originally posted by misita View Post
                But after reading your posts from last night it looks like plentiful game may not help that much. This does appear to be a young cat and maybe he's having trouble finding food and that's why he's hanging around. I hope not.

                or he is hanging around because there is water and plentiful game. While I have no doubt a cat will take on a foal or a horse when threatened....he will also take on the small game too. And will not kill just to kill. I think that as long as you are careful with your foals you will be fine especially once they are in the big field where they can get away...I think the dogs/donkeys are a good idea though.

                I guess I'm not one to be quick to kill it either. Carry a gun to protect myself yes...but what I do to protect myself if attacked is different....but not kill it just because it is a threat to my livestock. It is just one of many threats to my livestock....and part of the risk I assumed when building a farm in an area which has these animals. But your risk of your horses doing something else to hurt or kill themselves is probably higher than the cat getting them.

                I would be more focused on taking actions to make my livestock less desirable then other easier prey....cats are not stupid...he will go for the easier target.
                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Lesley Feakins View Post
                  When I came into the house and went of line to see what it was we actually saw, I was shocked that when a photo of a mountain lion came up....that was it...exactly. In this area you don't see them.
                  We are in northern Cumberland County, PA along the mountain and there have been reports of them in our area. Thank goodness I've never seen one. I talked with the Game Commission about it and they swear that there are NO Mt. Lions (eastern cougars) in PA. Yeah right. This is the same group that say we only have betwen 300-500 coyotes for the entire state! DCNR know they are hear they have seen their paw prints on their vehicles in the mornings when they come into work. They also said if we saw one and it was going after our livestock we were not allowed to kill it because they are apparently endangered here. Guess what they don't know won't hurt them

                  Livestock Guardian Dogs are great I know a few farmers that swear by them and also breed them. With the Great Pyrenees (big white fluffy dogs) you want them to continuely shed and slober. They are their two identification markers they leave behind when patroling an area.

                  Llamas also can be guard animals.

                  Mountain Lions are a different animal than cyotes, will a livestock guardian animal work or would a mountain lion just kill it (sorry to be so blunt). I know some farmers have cyotes around their farms but if they don't do anything to hurt their livestock they leave them alone. If the "good" cyotes leave another may move into the area and may not be a good one and leave the livestock alone. Is this true of mountain lions?

                  In northern Franklin County was a yearling attacked in it's pen by the barn about 3-4 years ago. Had deep long cuts down over it's flanks. The owners called Game Commission and they said it was a bear. There were no boards broken on the fence and what ever it was jumped in and jumped right out with leaving a trace.
                  The essential joy of being with horses is that it brings us in contact with the rare elements of grace, beauty, spirit, and fire. ~Sharon Ralls Lemon

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Re: the Anatolians...I have heard that they can be aggressive toward people. Unlike Pyr's, they were actually bred to go after people stealing stock, not just animals. I would stick with a Pyr, but that is just me. FWIW. Good luck!

                    Caitlin
                    Caitlin
                    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

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                    • #50
                      Glad you called DNR. I hope they get back to you soon. I second the idea of the donkeys. They will definitely kick the teeth out of anything coming in their field. I love having a Great Pyrnees around but they need to be a livestock guardian and not a pet. Anatolian Shepherds are another good option. If they can deal with lions they should be able to handle a mountain lion.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Most of the Anatolians I have met are fine with people. They are definitely stubborn but I wouldn't say they have problems with people as long as you work with them as babies. I worked with two in obedience and they were fine as long as they didn't want to do something else. If they did, well they'd just give me the finger and go do whatever they wanted to do.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          hhmmmm

                          some of those florida panthers are up here in georgia, so they arent extinct, just sticking to the woods and swamps so far. but sightings near one barn I boarded at, by the BO, not by me.
                          I used to be all for the cougars, don't shoot, etc., as I don't like the "sport" of hunting them and killing them. ditto the wolves.
                          since a lot of ranchers are actually killing on government land that they lease for dollars, I think we need wilderness for wild animals.
                          after all, the ranchers used to kill of the wild mustangs to use OUR range, and they still fence off the water sources to keep mustangs out.
                          but assuming the DNR guys won't come out and help, I think the OP should be able to kill the cougar. hey guys, they kill kids too. and do we wait till a child gets killed?
                          so if the DNR rangers won't come trap or kill, yes, kill the cougar.
                          I changed my mind when, I think it was Equus, a few years ago had an article concerning the rebounding of cougars and their death tolls on the mustang foals in nevada and california.
                          glad you got a new foal. but if he is lying out in the pasture when the cougar comes up..............and what if a mare foals out there with the cougar there? They eat deer, not just bunnies. and deer look about the size of foals.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            My now 9 year old gelding survived a mountain lion attack when he was 7 weeks old.. Field and Game said that it must have been a young lion learning how to hunt or he would have been cat food... My mare screamed like crazy till the owner of the field came out to investigate... My colt was pretty messed up... his chest was ripped open and his pectoral muscle was hanging out.. neck was pretty lacerated up as well.. intensive care and he is still with me today.. He has a scare on his chest nothing more... The mare was on alert that whole night... she kept her butt to him and he head out toward the unknown..

                            It can happen..

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I know Cloverdale and there are tons of mountain lions all around there. Shooting this one isn't going to reduce your overall risk much. It's probably an adolescent who is looking or a territory, making your place unwelcoming in terms of lots of noise, light and activity will do more than anything to get him to move on. Leave a radio on, keep the little babies in at night and walk your dogs in the pastures a lot. Consider motion detector lights and if you see him again, harrass him a LOT. Honk your horn, yell, throw things, fire a gun in the air etc etc.

                              I do love animals and I really love HORSES.

                              REALITY - cat will kill and eat foals.
                              REALITY= there are a $hitload of mountain lions in CA. They are all over the place and most horse farms probably are in a ML territory including some very, very famous breeding farms. I've personally seen a half dozen pumas within 1/4 mile of various farm over the years. Yet I have heard of only one alleged attack (on a mini) in 20 years. It's not a big issue and you have no idea what you're talking about.

                              Besides it is ILLEGAL to shoot them outside of very certain circumstances.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                showsheen- excuse me??? i know all about the florida panther, i was born and rasied in florida. where the h*ll do you get off telling me about a cat that i grew up with, very close to my house.i have nothing against the mountain lion, i simply stated that i would be scared out of my mind about it.i lived in jacksonville and saw them almost everyday on the sides of roads. i love the black panther, but the truth is yes those and mountain lions will hunt and kill a foal. i do agree to have it trapped and moved, but if it was on my property and stalking one of my animals, yes, it would be shot. i am an animal lover, i would not have the animals i have if not. yes, i am the one that picks up all the strays in my area. feeds them, nurses them back to health, then keeps them for life,so please. do not preach to me about animals.
                                ok, off my soap box.

                                mista- glad to hear last night went well, hoping for another quiet night for you and your mares and foals
                                www.camaloufarms.com

                                ride it like you stole it! "ralph hill"

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #56
                                  www.mountain-lions.org/

                                  Mountain Lions - Food Habits
                                  Mountain Loins are predatory carnivores, whose main prey is the white-tailed deer. Other prey species include rabbit, raccoon, wild hog, armadillo, and birds. Research indicates that about 80 to 90% of a lion's diet is deer. An adult lion kills one deer per week. Other prey species include elk and smaller mammals. What the lion does not eat, other predators and scavengers, such as coyotes, foxes, hawks, eagles and crows, use. Prey is dragged to a concealed place before another animal can eat it. The forequarters of the carcass are eaten first, and the rest is buried with grass by the Mountain Lion and fed upon later. Mountain Lions will kill and eat domestic
                                  livestock also.




                                  www.users.frii.com/mytymyk/lions/outdoor.htm

                                  During the last two years, mountain lions have also become vivid symbols of the conflicts between people and nature. Long relegated in our minds to the woods and mountain heights, they are now showing up in suburbs, backyards and school grounds. People are understandably concerned. In 1994, two women died after mountain lion attacks while confirmed deaths and injuries to pets and livestock have increased significantly.



                                  I do want you all to know, I'm not anxious to kill anything. I love wildlife too and it makes me very sad to think of the species we've hunted to extinction or near to. But there must be a balance. Unchecked killing is not good, yet total protection has created a huge population.

                                  I will do everything in my power to move along this cat. But I also must protect my herd. I've looked up ML prints and the print by Bravo's pasture was a big cat.

                                  I'm still waiting to hear from Fish and Game. I'll call again.
                                  Last edited by misita; Jun. 12, 2008, 10:00 PM.
                                  Chris Misita
                                  www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net Home of Bravo and Warrick!
                                  To dare; progress comes at this price. All sublime conquests are, more or less, the rewards of daring.
                                  Victor Hugo

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Cloverbug View Post
                                    In northern Franklin County was a yearling attacked in it's pen by the barn about 3-4 years ago. Had deep long cuts down over it's flanks. The owners called Game Commission and they said it was a bear. There were no boards broken on the fence and what ever it was jumped in and jumped right out with leaving a trace.
                                    Cloverbug. I am in Columbia County. Last summer I put a young mare out with my stallion and his mares. This mare did not run with the herd for the first week. Day 8 I think it was she comes in with a huge mark down her back side, three evenly spaced scrapes. And a torn up front fetlock. Vet said there are no cats in PA, she must have gotten caught on something. Problem is, there was nothing we could find for her to be caught on. We do have packs of coyotes out behind the pastures, moms with pups too, but I don't see a pack doing that to her. They also thought it might have been a bear? As I said I was trailriding in 1992 and I saw a large tan cat (mountain lion). So I believe they are around here.
                                    Maria Hayes-Frosty Oak Stables
                                    Home to All Eyez On Me, 1998 16.2 Cleveland Bay Sporthorse Stallion
                                    & FrostyOak Hampton 2008 Pure Cleveland Bay Colt
                                    www.frostyoaks.com

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                                    • #58
                                      listen to Pippin

                                      Originally posted by Pippin View Post
                                      My now 9 year old gelding survived a mountain lion attack when he was 7 weeks old.. Field and Game said that it must have been a young lion learning how to hunt or he would have been cat food... My mare screamed like crazy till the owner of the field came out to investigate... My colt was pretty messed up... his chest was ripped open and his pectoral muscle was hanging out.. neck was pretty lacerated up as well.. intensive care and he is still with me today.. He has a scare on his chest nothing more... The mare was on alert that whole night... she kept her butt to him and he head out toward the unknown..

                                      It can happen..
                                      listen to her, it can happen to you. lions have lost their fear of humans because humans have moved so far out that the lions see them daily instead of only seeing the occasional human. like coyotes, they have lost their fear of humans. and, you have the tempting young foals. now sure they will eat lamb, but the foals look a lot more like deer don't they? and they, mustangs/horses, are natural food for the big cats. don't do dogs. and don't walk around the pasture with your dogs. cats (and bears) love dog meat too. this is a situation where if the DNR does not intervene immediately, someone is going to get killed, either your foal(s) or you or the cat. now which would you rather have gone? call DNR tell them the cat came near you, was not afraid of you, and that you need them out there now. have your husband report a threatening lion to the sheriff. call that actor governor of yours. and call tv stations. I have found that reporters do more hard work on stories and get more results than do the average citizens. it seems that dnr isn't going to listen to you till something bad happens, then they'll say they didn't know about it or the message taker didn't tell them.
                                      call the tv stations in your area, get reporters out, get pix of lion and foals, and how you felt threatened gy the big cat, and ta da, someone will listen. It doesn't matter if the cat is trapped, fine, let them take it and move it. but they need to get out there. this isn't a situation where you have ridden into the cougar's lair and gotten attacked, he's hanging around your animals.
                                      I'm a "bleeding heart animal lover" but when it comes to my horses/dogs/cats vs a pit bull (flame flame) or cougar, kill the bastard!
                                      Last edited by cloudyandcallie; Jun. 12, 2008, 10:06 PM. Reason: changee

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                                      • #59
                                        You know, when it comes to protecting your family and your livestock, you do what you can and if it comes to shooting something, so be it I don't think it is something to criticize of someone (showsheen ;-). Trapping the cat is all a noble idea and everything, but chances are if it is hanging around a farm it is a hungry animal and it will either die, or find it's way very quickly to another farm and start stalking someone else's livestock. This is the way when there is an abundance of cougar (or any predator for that matter) in an area. If you are seeing them.......then there are lots of them around eating up all of the game so the younger ones are forced to look elsewhere (like in human's backyards, farms, etc.) I too, am very much an animal lover but if my son, or my animals were in danger, I would not hesitate to shoot a cougar, wolf, bear, you name it.

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by aspenlucas View Post
                                          Cloverbug. I am in Columbia County. Last summer I put a young mare out with my stallion and his mares. This mare did not run with the herd for the first week. Day 8 I think it was she comes in with a huge mark down her back side, three evenly spaced scrapes. And a torn up front fetlock. Vet said there are no cats in PA, she must have gotten caught on something. Problem is, there was nothing we could find for her to be caught on. We do have packs of coyotes out behind the pastures, moms with pups too, but I don't see a pack doing that to her. They also thought it might have been a bear? As I said I was trailriding in 1992 and I saw a large tan cat (mountain lion). So I believe they are around here.
                                          Mountain lions are definitely in Pennsylvania. I heard one scream in 1977 on our farm near Johnstown where I grew up. The scream defied description almost but like a shrill incredibly loud woman followed by deep gutteral coughs. We slept with windows open in the summer and the scream literally raised the hair on my neck it scared me so bad...I was about 15 years old then and remember that night vividly.

                                          I have since then talked to people who have seen them as you did. They are there.

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