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Sabino/Overo color question--does more white on stallion=more white on foal???

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  • Sabino/Overo color question--does more white on stallion=more white on foal???

    I have a lease on a really well bred AQHA mare that I'm breeding this year to an APHA homozygous tobiano. Since I'm currently showing APHA I wanted to gaurantee color.

    I do have a question for future years, though. The AQHA mare is a bay with no white on her legs, just a bit on her face. If I pick an APHA stallion with a lot of white, does that increase my chances of getting color?

    I understand the tobiano gene but the whole sabino/overo genes confuse me.

    My BO is breeding her solid APHA mare to this guy: http://www.reisingerfarms.com/StallionsFrame.htm but I think my BO has a better chance than I do of color because in her solid's pedigree are several colored horses.

    Thoughts? Anything to make this whole sabino/overo thing less confusing?

  • #2
    Certainly breeding to a known Sabino will help but it's no guarantee of enough white to get a colored foal. No one really understands the expression of this gene. Sabino 1 seems to work as a simple dominant but what is difficult to predict is HOW MUCH white you will get. I have a mare with Sabino 1 that consistently produces foals with as much as or more white than herself bred to a non sabino stallion. Out of three foals, she's had two extensive sabinos now that are more white than their base color.

    Your only color gene that is predictable for enough expression for your purposes is tobiano...a homozygous one.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Thanks Daydream Believer. That is why I went with the horse I picked. He's a really great horse. The only "problem" is he's not very tall, and I would IDEALLY like to produce a Hunter Under Saddle prospect. However, there are VERY VERY few tall, HUS stallions. The few that are out there weren't the match for the mare that I wanted them to be.

      Here's hoping that by next year an amazing homozygous tobi that is excelling in HUS pops up somewhere!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        Tobianos are the most predictable pattern, as far as guessing white. Even with tobiano there is no guarentee that you are going to get spots. You may just get high white stockings, but I believe that is enough to get you regular registry in APHA.

        Frame overo is the second most predictable pattern, but with any breeding you only have a 50% chance of getting the gene, and even then there is no guarentee of spots. I have seen many that are damn near solid and would be considered breeding stock very easily.

        Third most predictable is splash. In the heterozygous form it can be as minimal as completely solid with a blue eye or without. However in homozygous form it really turns on the white and produces horses like these
        http://www.thepromisewelsh.com/image..._colt_walk.jpg
        http://www.thepromisewelsh.com/image...illy_right.jpg
        http://www.thepromisewelsh.com/image...filly_left.jpg
        http://www.thepromisewelsh.com/image...onnet_side.jpg
        http://www.thepromisewelsh.com/image...e-cheyenne.jpg
        http://www.thepromisewelsh.com/image...flash_body.jpg

        Sabino is the least predictable in most cases. You can breed loud to loud and get solid or you can breed solid to solid and get white. Sabino is a crap shot (most times) as far as white goes.
        Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
        http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Yup..sabino is a Forrest Gump box of chocolates. One thing though is that often bay/black supresses sabino expression and chestnut enhances it. Our sabino stallion out of about adozen offspring had 3 solid foals, 2 white ones and the others were somewhere in the middle range sabino, tovero or tobiano. (2 mares were tobiano..1 had a tobi foal and 1 a tovero). A roan AQHA mare had a roan foal. The same rabicano TB mare was bred to him twice...she had one loud overo foal and one solid.
          Providence Farm
          http://providencefarmpintos.blogspot.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            I’m not totally sure how to predict it all. I bred my solid bay TB mare (only about 10 white hairs for an almost nonexistent star) to Sempatico, a homozygous black and white tobiano pinto warmblood. I believe it has a lot to do with the mares genetics as some of the foals so far this year have minimal marking out of plain bay mares and many others are highly marked like my colt.

            This is Sempatico.
            http://www.silverwoodfarm.com/sempatico.jpg

            These are of my colt, taken tonite at 6.5 weeks old terrorizing his mom.

            Left side
            http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...ure001_1-3.jpg
            Right side
            http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...ure002_1-4.jpg
            Cloverfox Stables

            Comment


            • #7
              It is tough to predict.
              I bred a bay mare (2 very short white socks, really, really small star) to a pinto warmblood twice.
              First foal was dark bay with 4 tall stockings, nice face marking.

              Second foal, hmmmm, she came out a medicine hat pinto!
              Attached Files
              www.glenhillfarm.com
              www.learntolikepink.com my journey with breast cancer
              http://www.facebook.com/pages/Petalu...2907692?ref=ts

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              • #8
                Which pinto warmblood? Radikal right? Are they both by him?
                Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by FLIPPED HER HALO View Post
                  I’m not totally sure how to predict it all. I bred my solid bay TB mare (only about 10 white hairs for an almost nonexistent star) to Sempatico, a homozygous black and white tobiano pinto warmblood. I believe it has a lot to do with the mares genetics as some of the foals so far this year have minimal marking out of plain bay mares and many others are highly marked like my colt.
                  As with any of the spotted patterns, it is unknown what causes some expressions to be loud and others to be subtle or not at all. Tobiano, which is what Sempatico is HZ for, is nearly nearly always expressed (I know of one solid foal born of a HZ parent - sire tested twice and showed HZ both times, foal tested to be Tobi as well), though sometimes it is a "slipped" Tobi with the markings being high whites, white over the hock(s) and white in the tail (most common presentation of a slipped). It can be as loudly expressed as mostly white, and of course anything inbetween.

                  What gets interesting is it's common for another pattern to be present as well, and that can have the effect of inhibiting some white, or creating more white. Sempatico is also Splash, most certainly, and that does weird things to both his pattern and that of his foals. I HAVE noticed a trend with his foals of more than normal numbers being more minimally marked, and I have a theory which I'm waiting on something before expressing it And *hint* it doesn't have anything to do with the mare
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Total crap shoot on white.

                    Plain bay mare (as in hardly a lick of white, maybe three hairs on whole body) x
                    Minimally marked tobiano =
                    http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/i...t=IMG_3888.jpg
                    Celtic Pride Farm
                    www.celticpridefarm.com
                    Become a fan on Facebook!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I bred my mare who is a chestnut with two socks and a cornet with a star stripe and snipe to a black 50/50 tobiano. I got a bay with a star and two hind socks.
                      This mare was also bred to a chestnut stallion who had 3 stockings and a blaze. That foal came out with 4 stockings and a blaze.
                      Another stallion I bred her to was a black homo with no white. The foal came out bay with a salt and pepper sock (not truly white)and about 5 white hairs for a star.
                      The last stallion I bred her to was black with two socks, a star and a snip.
                      That foal came out chestnut with two hind socks, a star and a stripe.
                      I was really wanting color when I bred to the tobiano. I figured since the stallion had so much white, I would have gotten color. But it was not to be.
                      http://community.webshots.com/user/snafflebitz

                      "My Saddlebred can do anything your horse can do" Clique

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 2Horse View Post
                        I was really wanting color when I bred to the tobiano. I figured since the stallion had so much white, I would have gotten color. But it was not to be.
                        How much white is there with a Tobi has no bearing on whether Tobi will be passed or not. If the stallion was Toto, then he only had a 50/50 chance each time of passing Tobi on. Less than that, really, if he was Ee and the To was "attached" to his E. On top of that is the total guessing game of whether the Tobi would be minimally or maximally expressed, or somewhere inbetween.
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          A friend of mine bred a chestnut mare to Sempatico three times. The first two were minimally pintos and the current foal looks 50-50.
                          All of them are tall, long legged with nice temperaments.
                          www.oakhollowstable.blogspot.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My guy is technically Tovero. Sabino in the true sense, lightening zig-zag stocking tops, white chin, lacy belly spots....

                            The very weird part is he either throws BOTH his patterns, or NOTHING. The most any of his solid foals have is a tiny white star. No stockings, no nothing. OR they are nicely marked pintos, five have had almost his exact markings--no doubt he's the daddy, #6 was a very bold tovero with much more white than anyone else.

                            I just have always thought it odd--I figured (hoped) in the beginning that the second gene would mean if he threw solid at least we'd get high whites... but they seem to be tied together with him.
                            InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                            Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by pintopiaffe View Post
                              The very weird part is he either throws BOTH his patterns, or NOTHING.
                              Is there any commonality in color to the 2 camps? As in - are the patterned ones black-based and the others not?
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Pretty sure hes chestnut JB
                                Check out my Equine Genetics Blog! Updated April 25th with Splashed White!!!
                                http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  LOL, why yes he is.

                                  But it would still be an interesting thing to know if there is indeed some sort of strong correlation, even if not 100% either way. It's known that E has some sort of inhibiting effect on certain patterns (appy, Frame, Splash, Sabino), so it would be interesting to see if the black-based offspring were the lesser-marked ones, and the E would obviously be coming from the dam.
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I know in our breed I've never seen splash by itself but we see it with sabino and overo a lot. We also have plenty of extensively marked black based horses so that might be breed related somewhat. Here is my most recent foal, an extensive sabino grulla filly out of a grulla sabino mare by an almost solid dun & buckskin stallion.

                                    http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...ifilly08-2.jpg

                                    http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...ifilly08-3.jpg

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Nope. Solids: red, black and bay, pintos: red, black & bay.
                                      InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                      Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Well, I've got a Tobi stallion and a handful of his foals AND a Sempatico foal AND a Nico filly, and a sabino yearling, and have come to the conclusion that color is mostly a crapshoot but the mare has something to do with it My Sempatico foal is out of a black mare that has historically been a "color blocker" - she's had consistently solid blacks even after being bred to pinto stallions several times. From Sempatico, we got minimal markings, just enough to be flashy, without too much to wash Pretty sure mare is supressing the "tons" of color.

                                        My Tobi stallion matched up with my chestnut mare (solid, and no color in either of her parents, solid chestnut and solid bay parents) gave me a tobi with mostly white. There may be a little Sabino in him, since I'm getting the classic white bottom lips as well. Two years ago, same mare bred to Nico (who my black mare was twice bred to with solid black foals) gave me a tovero - almost all white as well. Roaning in some of her brown spots, huge white bald face, white jaw line, a few brown spots. Both stallions had plenty of black in their patterns! I am thinking this solid mare has something to do w/ the white pattern.

                                        Meanwhile, third colored foal this year - again by my stallion, out of a bay solid mare (who has NO color in her lineage anywhere) gave me a 50/50 bay & white tobi (with some sabino characteristics - white lower lip).

                                        Just an interesting color side note - one of my stallion's fillies this year was out of a chestnut pinto mare (my stallion is B&W but not homo for black), so odds were pinto coloring of SOME type. 6% odds of a solid black - so we got, drum roll, solid black!

                                        I guess my point here, I think the mare has a lot to do with it, AND I think color is rather random in the amount of white/color you get. Talking to Paint breeders, they tell me the same thing. Color is a bit of a "crap shoot".
                                        www.MysticOakRanch.com Friesian/Warmblood Crosses, the Ultimate Sporthorse
                                        Director, WTF Registry

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