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2nd level perch x andy mare--TB, WB, or PRE stallion?

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  • 2nd level perch x andy mare--TB, WB, or PRE stallion?

    Goal is a my own ammy friendly dressage mount. I'd like a little bit less bone, more endurance, but the *priority* is to maintain temperament.

    I really love the PRE brain but could an iberian stallion lighten her for form and function? I do love bone, just maybe 25% less (if such a thing can be quantified).

    This is one special mare, registered half andalusian with IALHA. Great feet, healthy, SMART (smart...ahh, that can be complex, lol). At rated show in June, scored 64.5% first time out at second level-2 (late for show, minutes after horse trailer stuck on train track, another story).

    Yes, she's a mutt but I firmly believe she could contribute to one outstanding offspring.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/esthavera#p/u/6/FLRqyt1GY9Y
    Balance is the perfect state of still water (Confucius)

  • #2
    Might talk to the owner of the TB Sea Accounts and if he would compliment your mare http://www.debracysporthorses.com/De..._Accounts.html
    Epona Farm
    Irish Draughts and Irish Draught Sport horses

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    • #3
      If you MUST breed her, I think you ought to go back to a PRE so as to contribute as much "like to like" as you can. I would NOT add another breed/type into what is already a mix.

      If you go back to an Andalusian (PRE or Lusitano) you'd be more likely to lighten a bit and have the result be less likely to look like something put together with random parts from various breeds/types.
      Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

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      • #4
        I wonder if my stallion Lexington might be one you'd be interested in? He sounds like he might fit the bill wonderfully for what you describe you're looking for. He's got a fabulous temperament and trainability (showing and winning PSG as a 7YO), you'd be sticking with the baroque type while also infusing a little TB blood, and the offspring could be registered as a Friesian Sporthorse or an American Warmblood since Lexington is Approved for Breeding with both the FSA and the AWS. If you're interested you can also see offspring photos & videos on my website -- including three out of a Friesian/Percheron mare (one of which I am keeping for myself as a future broodmare) so you can see how that cross worked out to see if it's what you've got in mind.

        Lexington ~ Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse stallion
        River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

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        • #5
          If you MUST breed her
          Why do you say this? (My connection is too slow to watch the youtube video, maybe you know something I don't.) Or are you just opposed to crossbreeding in general? (Which is fairly common with Iberians I believe, just as it is with Frieians? So I would assume that just as with Friesians, if you are responsible and educated*, it can result in a very nice horse.) *responsible and educated being key, of course....

          And I'll add -- I also used to be opposed to crossbreeding (in my case, with Friesians) because the bad examples so much outnumbered the good examples. But....... after seeing some very nice examples, I came to realize it isn't crossbreeding in general which is bad, it's that alot of people may not make the best choices when crossbreeding, therefore many of the crosses we see aren't really representative of what "could be" if the crossbreeding was done more wisely, or with stricter breeding guidelines, etc.

          Anyhow, I respect your opinion, just thought I'd add mine
          River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.

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          • #6
            I think she's a beautiful mare and I wouldn't have guessed there was Perch in there if you hadn't said so. She looks like a purebred PRE. I don't know much about the breed, but are there PRE x TB stallions (Much like there are WB stallions with a lot of TB)? If so, that might lighten her up a bit but stay generally in the same breed. She's lovely!
            Caitlin
            *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
            http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

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            • Original Poster

              #7
              mare photos -- for easier access

              thank-you for all the input. Good or bad, it's fine. like a bad day of riding, as long as it's constructive.

              https://picasaweb.google.com/esthave...52383025985362
              Last edited by stecia; Aug. 24, 2011, 05:12 PM. Reason: grammer
              Balance is the perfect state of still water (Confucius)

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              • #8
                I agree with Sonesta on the "must breed." Just from the little video footage at the trot, she really doesn't have much movement (as a judge I would give it 5 or 6 on a good day.) I would not look at her to breed a dressage horse. In this day and age, it would be much, much cheaper to just buy what you're looking for. This was just a discussion on another thread about breeding. Unless you have a really, really nice mare and could no way afford the baby otherwise, it's much cheaper to buy what you want, and you know what it is already.

                Breeding is SUCH a gamble anyway, you never know what you're going to get, and breeding really different types is really tricky. You really need to improve the quality of gaits on the mare, but if you breed her to something very different, you could get the worst of everything.

                I'm not trying to be mean, but just really honest with you. I have only bred 4 horses, but I went by my theory. My first went to GP, the other was FEI, and the two coming up should be very, very nice. You really need a much better moving horse to make it worth your while.

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                • #9
                  I wasn't trying to be mean and didn't even look at photos or videos of the mare. I just think that crossbreeding is risky at best and when you cannot register the foals as anything other than a cross-bred, then I suggest thinking twice before breeding.

                  But then if you decided that you MUST breed her, I advise against adding even MORE random outside blood as you just increase the odds of producing something mediocre or even worse.

                  In the breeding world the FIRST RULE is breed like to like. Then you breed the BEST to the BEST and then hope for the best. The further one gets away from these rules, the riskier.
                  Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

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                  • #10
                    I think she moves exactly like a PRE (maybe with a little less knee). They typically don't have the suspension of a WB, at least of those that I've seen.
                    Caitlin
                    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

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                    • #11
                      From one who bred a nice QH mare to a Lusitano, you are better off financially to buy a foal. By the time you pay stud fee, which for a GOOD andy or luso will be $1500, and shipping and vet fees, you could have bought a foal. With none of the risk to your mare, and you'll get to choose the foal you like instead of hoping for the best. Half and 3/4 andies don't sell for much in this market, so you can pick one up for not a ton of money.

                      This is not a comment on your mare, as I didn't watch the video or look at the pics. It's just basic financial sense. Cheaper and more certainty to buy. Breeding your own is an expensive gamble.

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                      • #12
                        For me, I have a mare that I just love. Amazing temperament, that gets compliments every where we go.

                        I have been asked, "are you going to breed her"? I would LOVE another horse with this mare's mind.

                        But no, I am not going to breed her. For me, I just love this mare and wouldn't want to put HER through the risk of carrying a foal. If I lost her in pregnancy I would be devastated.

                        And of course, there is no guarantee that the foal would have her great mind... or be sound, or healthy, or any of it.

                        Lots of nice young horses out there, for not much $$.
                        APPSOLUTE CHOCKLATE - Photo by Kathy Colman

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                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          assuming...

                          I've given several years of careful consideration to each of these arguments, agree with their validity, and can afford to take decades of personal responsibility for a potential mistake. Any dreaded dysmorph shall be mine!

                          A poster or two say the big girl is not FEI potential. A couple of medalists see things differently. So.what. She is safe. Fun. Athletic. Low maintenance. Sound. She has 3 pure, comfortable gaits, health, intelligence, depth, beauty, versatility, resilience, work ethic, and most of all, a desire to please.

                          Anyway, Thank-you to Sonesta and others for respectfully answering my question. l tend to agree with you regarding breeding to baroque; I've defended your point vs. others who've offered their unsolicited opinions, lol.

                          But this is blatantly solicited....Would look forward to hearing from anyone else who has had experience breeding this or similar crosses.
                          Last edited by stecia; Aug. 25, 2011, 12:20 AM. Reason: grammar
                          Balance is the perfect state of still water (Confucius)

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                          • #14
                            I think your mare is really pretty.

                            I also think it's hard to find good homes and good feed for everyone. (I think that's why people said "if you MUST breed.")

                            If I were breeding her, I'd definitely choose an Andalusian.
                            Last edited by Cindyg; Apr. 25, 2012, 10:21 PM.
                            I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

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                            • #15
                              I would go with Andalusian. I'm partial to the Cartujanos. I don't really like the TBs crossed with them as I've noticed they are kind of tense and wired. It seems a lot of nervousness comes out in them. Good luck, she seems a lovely mare.
                              I LOVE my Chickens!

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                              • #16
                                This is always an interesting discussion. I am pretty firmly in the do not breed camp, but have a lifetime dream of raising one horse from foal to adulthood (thanks of course to watching too much International Velvet as a young child). I also love mares and have owned super mares and always day dream about their babies. So, I get it.

                                There are things to really like about your mare. Certainly her temperament, and general willingness and way of going. I am a big fan of 1/4 draft crosses. I would certainly rather see a nice, sound riding horse reproducing than the multitude of young (and old), lame warmblood mares out there that have never done a thing in their lives but people deem broodmare worthy!

                                Anyway, looking at her I would have to agree with breeding her to another Andy stallion, probably your best bet for a nice horse.
                                On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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                                • #17
                                  K well I actually WATCHED the video... actually I watched all the videos
                                  (BTW you really need to adjust the settings on your camera! I don't think she's that squished in real life!)

                                  I would definitely go PRE to improve shoulder & lighten her front end.

                                  I would look for a more classical old-world type stud for her (and what you want) like a Miguel Angel Cardenas. There are tons of MAC descendants around the US and some are very nice horses.

                                  Really terrible slow motion stud videos but Heroe is a nice boy.


                                  There is absolutely nothing wrong with you breeding your own horse as long as you intend to keep the foal if you can't/don't want to sell it.
                                  "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
                                  Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
                                  Need You Now Equine

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Megaladon, great thought. her sire has cartujano top and bottom--I'd say your suggestion would increase the likelihood of producing a phenotypically pleasing baby.

                                    thank-you all for your time and insight!
                                    Balance is the perfect state of still water (Confucius)

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                                    • #19
                                      After watching the videos, I thought her head was too large, and her legs looked quite light for her large body. In the pictures, it didn't seem this way so much. I see a LOT of the Percheron in her and very little Andalusian. I have actually seen purebred Percherons who look like this.

                                      If you choose to breed her (which I would ONLY condone if you're sure you can keep the baby for life) you will want to improve the following:
                                      #1 Movement!
                                      #2 Her haunches appear lacking/front end heavy
                                      #3 Her short neck/large head
                                      #4 I would want a lighter body but not lighter legs, be careful of breeding her to something too light boned or you could easily end up with a big frame on toothpick legs- it happens all the time in Draft/TB type crosses.
                                      I also noticed she paddles, which obviously comes from the Andy side and may not even be considered a fault as it seems to be their typical way of going.

                                      IMO, particularly with the glut of horses on the market, she should not be bred- it's just too much of a crap shoot. If you decide to go ahead, try to find a stallion who has already been crossed with similar mares a few times. I am not trying to be harsh, so I hope you don't mind the criticism.
                                      www.trinitysporthorses.com

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                                      • #20
                                        Paddling is not a natural or typical PRE way of going.
                                        "For some people it's not enough to just be a horse's bum, you have to be sea biscuit's bum" -anon.
                                        Nes' Farm Blog ~ DesigNes.ca
                                        Need You Now Equine

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