Wish list for the person starting our horses

[lauriep]

Not at the early stages we are discussing. Less than 90 days under saddle. Up to that point, they don' t need to specialize, and going forward, learning balance and stopping and turning at three gaits is universal. And yes, spmeone who innately understand young horses and can find the balance with empathy, instuction and discipline. We have such a guy, and he is worth more than his weight in gold.

[Charmb]

Starting

Well..I think,back to the original question, that this young person, with guidance, may well be someone who will be successful in starting young horses of all disciplines. Already he is coming from the right place in wanting to learn what the general populace is looking for by the end of say 90 days, for their "english" colts.

I as a rider was schooled in English, mostly ride English,and ride dressage. I started youngsters for many years, then age added a dimension that I still don't like, and have had the hard task to find a good trainer to replace myself. I live in a province that is western based, but has a good scattering of English riders/trainers. However, the English people mostly don't want to start colts, and want them w/t/c. So be it. Many leave some pretty big holes in the education of said young horses as well as the western trainers. So it isn't about english versus western in my opinion. It is about the very basics of horsemanship.

1. Teach your youngsters that work can be fun and interesting.

2. Ground work is imperative

3. Long lining and ground driving imperative.

4. Round pen, done right, is amazing. (this I still do myself and often the double lining,etc as well). Don't confuse round pen work done right with endless circles in it or on the longe line.

5. Forget frame....think relaxed, forward - attuned to the body and the leg.

6. Arena exercises that focus on variety and pleasently teaching them the next nuance.

7. Play with a jump chute. Nice variety and makes them think. And it doesn't hurt a future dressage horse to cross discipline.

8. If you are working with a western trainer, trail riding should be on the list for sure. Again...helps with positive thinking and again allows a young horse to develop their mind, become confident and think their way out of trouble.

9. Days of training...can not be set in stone. Each horse is an individual. What may take some 30 days will take others 90. Work with your trainer on assessing each of your youngsters. Be a help to your trainer, not a stone around their neck.


Then you can begin the training that leads to finishing your horse to Training level, etc.

The "faults" that I have personally encountered with "western trainers" may well be just a total lack of formal training and experience on their behalf. A lack of discipline and understanding that leads to them being frustrated, angry,etc. The same can be said of some english trainers I have encountered as well.

Here is what I have experienced.

1. Trainer afraid of large horses (but neglected to tell me that). After 4 months with 2 horses, one of which had good ground work before going, 1 had had a saddle on it. The other had had nothing done. I don't care W or E, this was a plain rip off.

2. Trainer had the horse beautifully quiet, going w/t/c and moving off the leg respectfully. However, had a total body "set" and nor longer moved forward. This horse by the by is a 9 mover. We had to teach him "forward freely" when he came home. But, as a stallion, we have never had a moment with him at public places,etc. that have ever been an issue. I can live with the having to teach more forward again, cause all the other positives more than made up for it. This stallion was shown and even tied to trailers at various events,etc. Job more than well done.

3. Most W trainers just don't get how much influence our body ride can have, or how desirable it is. They hand and leg ride horses.

my present trainer is a sponge. What can I say? She is finally taking some schooling with horseman that are upper level, and the message is coming over loud and clear to her....ride forward, engage from the rear....the roundness will come if you ride forward calmly,etc. Contract flows from engagment,back to front. I also am working with her on learning dressage, and the lessons flow back down to her work with colts. She is an amazing trainer to begin with...a natural horse person who has worked with some of the top working cowhorse, etc. type trainers/riders. People that have horse coming out of their skin, and yeap, tying is a lesson they learn.

And finally, recently she rode one of our youngsters with Herman Baca from California. It was a total epiphany!! Herman is a totally classical dressage rider and as a Peruvian Maestro, he is horseman beyond belief. His knowledge of the horse psyche, physiology etc is 2nd to none. He not only worked with her, he himself rode the youngster and schooled him through a minor issue, and then told us, the problem was rider/training and why/how it happened,etc. All about trust, forward, proper ground work. A book of knowledge in 2 hours. Yes, a 2 hour lesson, private. All of us learned so much. And he did teach"all of us" rider,horse and auditors. By the by, the 2 hours was mainly walking, change of riders, etc. The horse was NOT exhausted or anything like that. In fact, as we were talking after, Samdalon choose Herman as the person he'd like to hang with. So definetely a horse happy with the person who made him listen, learn and work. And interesting side note we thought.

This working a dressage prospect with a Peruvian Maestro sounded weird heah? But Herman shows dressage, in fact at this time he shows I believe an Andalusian stallion, and works on an Andalusian breeding farm schooling, showing. Far from the Peruvian western style tack....not really if you look at the Peruvian program for training....it's about the brio, etc. A high degree of schooling.

So to end my book, chuckle. It is not the tack. It is the person. This young person may not get rich riding greenies, but he'll learn things the Vet College will never teach him. We will be richer to have a Vet with good knowledge of horse behaviour and ability to work iwth horse, and in the meantime, there will be some youngsters out there with good miles to go forward for their owners.

[mbm]

hey don't shoot the messenger lol! i am just telling you what i have seen around here, at the barn i am at, at barns all over, the training a friends horse got at the "Western barn" etc. (also seen in a multitude of videos on youtube)

i am not saying all western folks are bad riders. what i am saying is that - even from the very start - my observation has been, how different disciplines handle their horses is different. what they expect is different from each other.

i just think that if the horse is destined to be an dressage/event/jumper the proper foundation for those disciples should be what they get.

i am also defending "dressage trainers" because some of "us" don't crank and spank, some of us are not weenies, etc.

[classicsporthorses]

I have not read all of the responses but as a trainer who starts and had started a lot of youngsters my advice would be

"Train them from the ground up". All of my own and those I train learn the skills to be solid citizens. Manners first, clear directions, consistency, praise. Mine, and those sent to me go through our programs, at different rates of course depending on the horse from ground manners and desensitizing to learning voice commands (free lunging and on the line-and I don't spend a lot of time on this), to ground driving (in a good fitting halter first then a bridle for contact) to saddle work. I even ride them bareback too.

Balance and using their bodies is so important. We do work in the ring, out of the ring, down the road, in fields, with veteran horses and alone. They learn to work in a "group" setting as in riding with other horses to mimic a class, standing in a line up, backing up-the right way and so much more.

Don't overdue it.. by that I mean, like humans horses learn at different rates,...know your horse. Some 'get it' really fast others well they may be on the slower ship. You can get to the end goal but the journey may be different for each horse.

I have high and consistent expectations of all of my horses and those that are sent to me and they know it. No harsh tactics, okay I have bellowed at a horse or two in my day, We work as a partnership but I am the leader. With that being said, trust the horse beneath you. Fear will get you killed.

I personally have trained from ponies to Mustangs to full drafts and horses who have not hardly been touched by human hands, and the basic prinicples apply. So many miss this and then they wonder why their horses are not 'doing' what is asked per say. Well they don't have the foundation to go from.

Other important part, involve the owner as much as possible. Afterall, the horse does have to go home and as I say "we need to be speaking the same language".

[Oakstable]

Classicsporthorses.
Thank you for your thoughtful response.

To those who say only use a dressage trainer to start a dressage horse, the option does not exist.

I think one of the biggies that Classicsporthorses mentioned is that the language being taught by some Western trainers is nothing that the owner knows or cares to learn. This has been an issue for me with one trainer. He used only body language, no spoken commands.

[classicsporthorses]

You are welcome and that language works both ways. Learn to listen and read your horse and they will speak to you. No fancy, expensive. gadgets or tricks needed.

I tell my clients, "Raising/training young horses is like raising children". We are really not that much different from our horses if we care/choose to be a part of their lives too.

[fordtraktor]

I think one of the biggies that Classicsporthorses mentioned is that the language being taught by some Western trainers is nothing that the owner knows or cares to learn. This has been an issue for me with one trainer. He used only body language, no spoken commands.

I agree that many western trainers are not appropriate to start dressage horses. Dare I say ANY horse? But I think the same is true from trainers of all types. I do jumpers, but some hunter/jumper trainers teach horses with methods I have no interest in using myself, too harsh or too much leg and hand, ending up with unresponsive, dead-sided horses. See-sawing is very popular these days, overbending one way and then the other. Hate it, have no use for it.

Many of you do dressage, but have no interest in the "crank and spank" methods used by other dressage trainers as much as you have no interest in a bad western trainer.

I started a horse for a licensed dressage judge, and she specifically did not want her horses ridden with too much contact in the first 90 days or so -- she preferred a focus on forward, light and straight (which of course includes into to bending as bending is straight around a turn). She felt that doing otherwise was in contravention of the training scale.

I find that after about 60-90 days most horses start offering to consistently reach into the contact and begin going on the bit naturally anyway if ridden well. I just wait until they show signs of being ready, and am there for them when they do. Why put the cart before the horse?

[Equilibrium]

Love it Fordtraktor! Well said!

[Oakstable]

Western trainers spend a lot of time on desensitizing, at least in recent years.

Waving a whip over the head like a propellor blade.

Whipping the ground.

[EqTrainer]

I'm thinking of using a cowboy for about 45 days.

I want the butt in the saddle, horse going forward from the leg and seat, and steering.

Basic voice commands.

Tying, loading, unloading.

And no backing up.

I'd love to see some youtube video footage of a dressage person starting a horse.

Please.. Cannot say this enough....

[Go Fish]

Western trainers spend a lot of time on desensitizing, at least in recent years.

Waving a whip over the head like a propellor blade.

Whipping the ground.

No they don't...not the real trainers, anyway.

Don't confuse "natural horsemanship" trainers (i.e., Pat Parelli) with western trainers (i.e., cutting, reining, AQHA, APHA).

[Kyzteke]

Again, I think it all boils down to good horsemanship (which, of course, means a trainer whose methods & philosophies match mine); the discipline doesn't matter so much.

If I had the $$ and lived closer, most of my dressage youngsters would be started by Jessica Wisdom...I think she is one of the best "classical" young horse trainers I've seen.

But I've also seen some pretty handy western "cowboy" trainers. Right now there is a young gal in my area who studied with Dennie Reis for 2 yrs. and now takes some dressage lessons with a local (2nd level) rider. She is big on getting horses out on the trail and such, but she is still strong on lateral work, forward and general good manners.

So really, I truly do think, like so many things "horse" -- it depends...

[mbm]

who studied with Dennie Reis for 2 yrs

is a good thing?

as for dressage riders starting horses. i am amazed that folks cant imagine what that might be like..... have you ever read the klimke book or the book by Podhasjky? that is what is is like

before horse/pony is ever backed they learn basic ground manners - learn to lunge (usually w/o side reins), learn voice commands, some basic in hand work ,like walk on/halt/backup (a few steps, not a mile lol!) ... they learn forward is not an choice but how they will work.... bathe, clip, wear boots, etc. all in a a very low key way. no drilling.

once they are at an appropriate age (depending on the horse but generally never before 3, usually a bit later ie fall of their 3 yo year) they get backed. then once they are comfortable with a rider sitting on them , then it goes to the lunge line and w/t/c, basic steering all are worked on.

as an example my 3.5 yo pony is about to come off the lunge - i have ridden him maybe 12 times.... so 3 months, 1 day week, he gets worked a total of 2 - 3 days per week....the 2 other days maybe light lunge, maybe free jumping, maybe a walk up in the hills ...

it is all incremental, based on what the horse can do. my pony is already wanting to connect himself and is learning to bend etc. the feel he is giving me is quite amazing actually (and he is super fun to work with a- a real character lol!)

no drama, no crank and spank, no negative experiences that will need to be dealt with later....

i am not a pro trainer, altho i train my own horses, and i have the help of a german trained (via Theodorescu's barn + others) certified trainer.

many trainers don't know who to work youngsters - but it is really rewarding work, and it is so much fun

my advice for the OPs friend is still - if you want to train dressage horses - spend time at a VERY good barn where you can learn how to start them the correct, classical/traditional way that makes it fun for them and also sets them up for success.

[Equilibrium]

Well as I'm one to put a spanner in the works, I personally don't want my horses desensitised with a damn tarp. I raise jumpers so if there is a tarp on the ground I want them to jump it not walk over it thank you. That seems to be the training method du jour these days. Look my baby can wear a tarp like a cape. Woopdie do. If there are things on the ground please walk over not on them. FWIW, they do not go to shows and suddenly die because they haven't been tarped to death.

And I'm questioning working on basic steering after you get on. This is why I drive and long line. Steering, brakes, and voice command are firmly in place before I get on and it doesn't take 3 months to do so. They aren't over bent as I don't use side reins. What I have is nice contact from driving properly. As in they know what a bit is for. Again, that's actually ok to have horses know that. As for me personally, I will never be lunged on one. That's just my thing and if I have done my ground work properly I do not need to fear one running off with me as soon as I'm free. And it has never happened. I try not to spend weeks and months of lunging a horse fit either. Young joints and boredom for a start. Horses are really not that stupid. It doesn't take them 3 months of trying to figure things out on a lunge line.

Terri

[mbm]

agree no tarps!

re: steering, steering during ground work is done, but steering with a rider can be different current pony steers well w/o rider, not so good with rider lol! they are all different.


.

[Kyzteke]

is a good thing?

Yes, it is, in my opinion.

Note she is also taking dressage lesson, so she does know the difference between the two.

MBM Yeah, in a perfect world we'd all have Klimke living next door who would start all our babies. But we don't. And frankly, from what I've seen of most dressage riders in my area who are willing to start babies (and I concur -- most are total weinies when it comes to riding babies), I wouldn't let them touch my horses with a ten foot pole.

Again, most of my horses are (luckily) sold at weaning or yearling, so I don't have to wrestle with this issue much, but I happen to know one dressage rider here who also has her horses started by a "cowboy"...and she has absolutely no issue with this.

I repeat -- better a good cowboy than a bad dressage rider.

[NWDressage]

This is an interesting thread I work with a BNT dressage trainer, and he has been successful internationally at GP as well as with young horses. I learned to start babies from him, and would personally never send a baby to a cowboy. In fact, I would rather see US dressage breeders send their babies to be started by trainers like this BNT and their riders rather than cowboys. Nothing really against cowboys, but I would rather have a dressage horse started with a more classical dressage background (think the way the Spanish Riding School starts their horses). It doesn't mean short side reins and cranked on the bit from day one, but more an understanding of the leg and seat and a supple contact with a soft mouth. Forward and straight are what I care about in the very beginning, and if ridden well, the rest will come naturally.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all FEI trainers make good young horse trainers, just as all good riders don't always make good trainers or judges, and vice versa. There is a reason USEF doesn't have just one dressage coach (let it be understood that I think very highly of all of the USEF coaches!)

Again, this is an interesting discussion. Thought I'd add my two cents

[NWDressage]

Oh I forgot! My BNT trainer has about 10-15 horses a day in FL during season. Most of those he is riding, about a third are lessons. He is in the arena from 7:00am until almost 7:00pm, on super (super!) fancy horses and some not so super fancy, from 4yr olds to GP. For those that think dressage riders never take their horses out on trails, I'd like to respectfully disagree. While my trainer doesn't have the time to really go on the long trails with all the horses, he does walk his horses out along the property lines (which is actually a very large property) with all of his horses in training, every day. And when you lesson with him, he will almost always tell you to do the same when you are done working. He also has had me take one of his babies out around the neighborhood a few times and has encouraged field work and long group trails. While I agree that a lot of trainers are a bit timid outside of the arena (also keep in mind how busy these trainers are!), not all trainers are, and some really good ones understand the value of a horse's mental state and allowing the horse to be a horse, as well as exposing the horse to a variety of stimuli. I think it also encourages the bond between horse and rider

[Nootka]

Well as I'm one to put a spanner in the works, I personally don't want my horses desensitised with a damn tarp. I raise jumpers so if there is a tarp on the ground I want them to jump it not walk over it thank you. That seems to be the training method du jour these days. Look my baby can wear a tarp like a cape. Woopdie do. If there are things on the ground please walk over not on them. FWIW, they do not go to shows and suddenly die because they haven't been tarped to death.

And I'm questioning working on basic steering after you get on. This is why I drive and long line. Steering, brakes, and voice command are firmly in place before I get on and it doesn't take 3 months to do so. They aren't over bent as I don't use side reins. What I have is nice contact from driving properly. As in they know what a bit is for. Again, that's actually ok to have horses know that. As for me personally, I will never be lunged on one. That's just my thing and if I have done my ground work properly I do not need to fear one running off with me as soon as I'm free. And it has never happened. I try not to spend weeks and months of lunging a horse fit either. Young joints and boredom for a start. Horses are really not that stupid. It doesn't take them 3 months of trying to figure things out on a lunge line.

Terri

This.

I have started all of my horses and they knew what left, right, stop and back up were before I even sat in the saddle

[mbm]

the lunging when first ridden isnt about being run off with. it is about progressive training. horse learns w/t/c on lunge. rider is added and doesn't do anything - just sits. horse does w/t/c on the lunge getting used to riders weight. rider slowly takes over control.

the lunge is also good because it bends the horse which helps it be straight and allows it to connect itself when it is ready.

when horse is ready the lunge line is taken off and the lunger still in the arena with a whip to help ensure horse is forward etc.

the idea, in all of this, is that there is nothing new to the horse, that everything is built on what came before. that it isn't asked to do something it isnt prepared for.

i am not sure about the time lines of 90 days for a horse to be going connected.... i guess it depends on the horse, but as i already mentioned, my pony is offering to connect himself in less that two weeks cumulative under saddle work.

and again, re: steering.... a horse that steers with long lines etc may or may not steer when first put under a rider.

and finally, i have no problem with a good trainer training a horse. my issue is to let someone who doesn't understand the discipline horse will be training i putting the basic training on. a well started dressage horse should be offering to connect, bend, etc fairly quickly. and that does not mean heavy contact. it just means the horse is using its body properly

i am sure there may be western guys who can do a good job starting dressage horse.... but to do so he would need to understand what is needed.

so my initial advice remains: if you want to start dressage horses go spend some time at a VERY good barn so you can learn what is needed.

it isnt rocket science. but even so, you need to know what is required of the horse to be able to give it a good start.