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Wish list for the person starting our horses

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  • #21
    I do my own. But here is my personal list:

    1. Forward. From day 1, always reward forward.

    2. Straight. A little bit of squirrelly is natural but the earlier they start this concept, the better.

    3. Don't be in a rush to add in contact. Horses do not die if they are not on the bit in 30 days. In fact, if they are, they are probably not forward enough.

    3. Short sessions. Do something good and put the horse back in the barn. They are not strong enough to stay forward and straight for very long.

    4. Ride out. See things. Don't make the horse a wimp or a prima donna.

    5. Praise often and lavishly, but carry a dressage whip. Horses, like children, do best with clear boundaries.

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    • #22
      6 months or so.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by Indy-lou View Post
        I am sending one of my young horses to a horseman right now. He happens to be a "cowboy" because he primarily gets young horses that are destined to be ranch horses in this area, and cows are how he makes his living. But, he is a horseman. He knows horses. That is the main thing. I've gone over my expectations with him and we are on the same page: the goal is for the young horse to say yes and to move forward when asked. On the ground or under saddle. I want my horse to look forward to each session, and for there to be purpose in everything asked in a manner that the horse understands without contraptions or gimmicks as short cuts. No brutality. We agree fear sets horses backwards, and that their memory for fear is long, if not forever. It does not matter to me what sort of saddle or tack in the beginning as long as it is not severe and does not cause pain or fearful setbacks. I have asked that he start from the ground and find any holes there before moving on to mounted work. The horse should accept commands from humans respectfully, and this can only happen when there is trust. I personally think it is important for young horses to find purpose in their work before introducing them to things like side reins. I have seen too, too many trainers put young horses in side reins and saw those young horses go over backwards. Happens too frequently when "trainers" try to skip the basic work, and I think also this happens because many trainers are fearful of young horses and seek control through contraptions before the horse is ready. And as Equilibrium said: get them out of the arena (offer them a reason and interest in doing the work, horses are intelligent and seek purpose, never disregard or underestimate this) endless round-penning is boring to me, let alone a young horse, introduce the leg for forward, long-lining, and voice commands for longeing. These are the baby steps. I think the old cowboys were correct in introducing the more advanced "bridle work" later after the baby work is going well. The last thing I personally want to see is for a young horse with no other life experience being put into tightly drawn side reins with a bit and whipped into forward. Rather, forward and happy first, ask for contact after. Every well-started ranch horse I have put a dressage saddle on and asked for contact with has responded positively because they are willing and understand forward very well.


        Excellent post!

        BTW, I breed for dressage and I have (and had) no issues with having a "cowboy" type start my horses. In fact, I've had 'em started by both cowboys and (so-called) professional dressage trainers. Hands down, the cowboy did a better job, while the dressage rider cranked that youngster in so badly she ticked him off on the "contact" idea for many years.

        Because, here in this country we have no licensing or testing to be a "horse trainer", the quality control is all over the place.

        And here's a news flash -- just because someone is a "dressage rider" doesn't make them a good horseperson. I've seen plenty of riders in a ring who have little sense of timing, are afraid to truly let the horse go forward, and who I wouldn't let anywhere near my horses.

        So I would pick the best horse person, and not worry too much about the discipline as long as we were both on the same page in terms of what the horse's ultimate "job" is going to be.

        From my experience, 90-120 days under a (good) western horse person, chasing cows, spending hours on the trail alot with arena work is great for the brain & body of a young horse.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by dressurpferd01 View Post
          6 months or so.

          No, I think they asked WHAT did you have to undo? I'd like to know that too.

          The only major difference I've found is that western horses are ridden on such very light bit contact the riders want little pressure on the bit, were dressage is obviously the other way around.

          But once we got that sorted out, we were fine. The cowboy, who also had alot of experience driving (real stagecoach/carriage driving, not ground driving) said, "oh, bit contact like in driving?" Yeah!!

          And it was all good.

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          • #25
            I do not want my young horse lunged for 3 months 5-7 days a week, then toss on a rider and expect them to go like 1st level horses. This is how most dressage barns: big, german, classical, super professional and well-regarded, do it. It's a factory to mass produce fancy dressage horses, and not all of them end up making it in that kind of program due to very stressful physical and metal demands. I think there is a better way to make a (fancy) dressage horse and better ensure a happy, sound horse. That's what I do and where my expertise is.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by Kyzteke View Post
              No, I think they asked WHAT did you have to undo? I'd like to know that too.

              The only major difference I've found is that western horses are ridden on such very light bit contact the riders want little pressure on the bit, were dressage is obviously the other way around.

              But once we got that sorted out, we were fine. The cowboy, who also had alot of experience driving (real stagecoach/carriage driving, not ground driving) said, "oh, bit contact like in driving?" Yeah!!

              And it was all good.
              Someone had asked how far along the horse in that picture was, about 6 months, and was one I started myself.

              The ones that were cowboy'd were constantly going backwards whenever they didn't understand something, were exceedingly tense and nervous and had been ridden in tight circles. Never bigger than 10m at the trot, and 15m at the canter. This was a cowboy that came highly recommended from a "top" jumper farm. I was NOT impressed.

              Comment


              • #27
                Reading this discussion is really interesting for me...

                I think the problem is not the system (western or English) its the person....

                About 30 years ago I was on a ranch in Montana for vacation. There a Cowboy started the young horses.
                Because I was interested I watched and found it very similar to Germany... He lunged the young horse in a roundpen (no sidereins), then he mounted it (by the way He used a bit which was broken) and after 2 days he rode the young horse out in the pasture and in the woods...
                I think he did a great job.

                On the other hand I watched a lot of professionals in Germany who lunged the young horses with very very short sidereins.. I always thought it was cruel for the youngsters.

                Now for years I have started my own homebred youngsters.
                I think it is important to get them used to react to my legs to go forward. Ofcourse if possible I like a very soft connection with the reins too... But the most important thing in the beginning ist really the reaction to the forward command with the leg. Everythingelse will come sooner or later anyhow.

                I wouldn´t mind having a cowboy starting my young horses as long as he has a sense for horses...

                I would give my young horses neither to an English nor a Western Rider if I wouldn´t like his way to work with horses...
                (I watched some of the reining videos.. those guys I would never let on my horses.....)
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                • #28
                  As someone who does start her young ones, I totally get where the dressage people are coming from. And I do not believe they want their horses cranked down from day one. I get that. Big strides are also something people may not be used to and the inclination is to rein back. It's not so much the length of stride but the elevation. So this guy needs to be aware of that. Not talking about it, experiencing it.

                  Really being honest about what you are capable of and not portraying yourself as someone who knows it all is a good attribute to have. If someone said to me is your background in dressage babies I'm not gonna lie as some do thinking ehh, it will be fine. I don't want someone getting a horse back who isn't happy and has to undo stuff. That's not what this is about.

                  Lucky for me Ireland is not a dressage haven. At the moment ponies are my niche because I'm small and they are easy enough for me to do on my own. I'm having fun and only do one at a time.

                  Terri
                  COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                  "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
                    Boy, ain't that the truth. What a bunch of wienies. I know far more dressage trainers that want unbroke youngsters sent to a "cowboy" before they'll touch them than I do any other discipline.
                    I disagree. Not every dressage trainer is meant to take horses from scratch to FEI.

                    I think when you make your lively hood on horses going first level and above, the expectation is different for the horse. Sometimes people cannot transition into baby mode. For me, I know I cannot ride a baby the same way I ride my older mare who is working FEI, I know I can't teach the baby as effectively as someone who does that all day long, 365 a year. So when I give up the ride for 180 days to someone, it's not saying I'm incompetent, it's saying I'm responsible enough to make sure that the horse is trained and ready for the work ahead.
                    Kelly
                    It is rare to see a rider who is truly passionate about the horse and his training, taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation, and making this extraordinarily subtle work one of the dominant motivations of his life.\"

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by tempichange View Post
                      I disagree. Not every dressage trainer is meant to take horses from scratch to FEI.

                      I think when you make your lively hood on horses going first level and above, the expectation is different for the horse. Sometimes people cannot transition into baby mode. For me, I know I cannot ride a baby the same way I ride my older mare who is working FEI, I know I can't teach the baby as effectively as someone who does that all day long, 365 a year. So when I give up the ride for 180 days to someone, it's not saying I'm incompetent, it's saying I'm responsible enough to make sure that the horse is trained and ready for the work ahead.
                      I think this is very well written
                      And please let's not forget that young horses are like babies. They are eager to learn and they should learn that riding is fun. And I don't really see the point for the need to ride dressage from the beginning...
                      As I said before, as long as some basics are observed, it is nicer for a young horse to just go for rides out in the forest with the rider than to do "correct" dressage training from the beginning....

                      This is only my opinion, which might be wrong......
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                      https://www.facebook.com/Ulrike-Bsch...4373849955364/

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                      • #31
                        for me, what i see at the non dressage based (and when i say dressage i mean those that are good at it and not crank and spankers!) trainers are the following:


                        tiing a horse for hours to teach them "patience"
                        loads and loads and LOADS of trotting on the lunge (read 15' rope) on a very tiny circle
                        a lot of incomprehensible rope snaking, backing, wand waving and other nonesense.
                        loads of HQ disengagement
                        i would say almost the whole "world view": of how they handle horses is so very very different...

                        oh, also leaving horses tied to the hitchin' post ALL DAY LONG .

                        i could go on.

                        no thanks. i would rather do it myself i just dont want to have to spend the rest of the horses life dealing with that crap (and yes, i have done that)

                        the first few months of riding are CRITICAL to the horses development and can make or break a horse.

                        ps - any GOOD trainer will take the youngster out as soon as it is safe enough (ie goes/stops/steers)

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          I think the most important things are timing and patience when working young horses. I personally start all of ours and have for years. I want to make sure I have a clear line of communication with the young ones first before I ever back them. I do in hand work, light lunging and ground driving to start with. I take them all over the farm and only work in the ring for certain lessons. It is important to me to teach the forward from the ground so that is easier for them to translate from their back. They also learn to steer and their downwards from the ground. What I am looking for before I ever back them, is for them to work in the same manner I would expect once I am on them. If you round pen them to death with their heads in the air careening around like a motorcycle then that is what you will get once you are under saddle. I want a balanced, relaxed and forward horse on the ground. Once I move on to backing, I am looking for the same things, and "usually" since we have confirmed this on the ground well before backing, it is a much easier transition. I want them to move lightly off of my seat and legs. I don't want to squeeze toothpaste. Carry a dressage whip to reinforce what you are asking after the first time. I want a horse that is soft and willing to seek the contact in the bridle on his/her own.
                          I am not a dressage trainer and don't even play one on T.V but in the end it the foundation from which all disciplines should be built on. The basics of course.
                          I think timing of the aides and the reward is so very important. That is something that I would look for in anyone that I would consider sending my horse to first. I would want someone that doesn't have a method set in stone and trains like a robot. In my 25 years of riding I have learned that each horse is different. I like to let my program flex with each individual horses needs and personality. I know what worked for the last 2 horses just may not work for this horse. I want someone who can think out side of the box.
                          In the end I want someone I get an over all good feeling from. I want to see them in action. I don't feel you need a specialized (discipline) trainer but you should be looking for someone that specializes in young horses.
                          To your friend, I suggest finding a breeder that may be open to working with him. He can get his feet wet and also start to build some references, which will be vital if he plans on pursuing this route. Good luck to him. I have always preferred working with the babies and young horses. It can be extremely rewarding
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                          • #33
                            I wanted to add. This is one of our late two year olds. I bought her back from her owner when she got in a jam. She had sent her off to a "Cowboy trainer" Yes she was sacked out there to early and when she got home I could tell that it was not done in a manner that I felt was beneficial to her. What did I do? Kicked her out in the field and let her be a horse again. I just recently brought her up and started her in my program. We started from scratch. While she is only getting worked once a week, she is doing wonderfully. This is what I would expect from them on the ground before we ever would consider backing her. She is a long ways from where she was when I got her back.
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                            Last edited by alliekat; Aug. 6, 2011, 01:31 PM.
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                            • #34
                              Alliekat, that was a great post, you are spot on with your views on working babies, thank you!

                              As for me, I am a dressage trainer (riding up to around second level, so I'm not a big FEI trainer) and I start young horses. I'm extremely surprised that no one has mentioned these next few points. When I start a baby, it's my chance to preserve sensitivity to the aids - instilling things like halting off seat, and using my body to regulate tempo, turn, etc are *usually* easy (haha). I've taught many older horses these same things, and it's so hard once they've had riders on them that did not ride in this manner because they do not know you're even giving them an aid.

                              The reason to have a dressage person start your dressage prospect is not to get them on the bit or anything silly, to me it means having them learn things like halting off seat alone, bending properly through the ribcage and not just the neck, etc... things that 99.9% of cowboys do not understand or do.

                              I'm also surprised that many people think 30 or 45 days is long enough to get a horse going w/t/c well once they get to the trainers. I feel like that would be rushing most horses. I like to spend 30 days just doing aaalllll the prep work before doing much more than just sitting on them and maybe toodling around at the walk. You'd be amazed at how many people think their horses have good manners and are ready to ride, until you start actually asking them for things on the ground and they show you how much they don't know how to work with humans after all. A big part of teaching babies is teaching them how to learn - we need to create horses that when asked something they don't understand their reaction is to stop and think and offer different reasonable answers. Very few horses come to me that way! Most react to simple questions with anger, fear, shutting down, etc... It's so much safer and more effective to bring out these issues on the ground and fix them there so when you get on to ride, all is well.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                for me, what i see at the non dressage based (and when i say dressage i mean those that are good at it and not crank and spankers!) trainers are the following:


                                tiing a horse for hours to teach them "patience"
                                loads and loads and LOADS of trotting on the lunge (read 15' rope) on a very tiny circle
                                a lot of incomprehensible rope snaking, backing, wand waving and other nonesense.
                                loads of HQ disengagement

                                oh, also leaving horses tied to the hitchin' post ALL DAY LONG .


                                ps - any GOOD trainer will take the youngster out as soon as it is safe enough (ie goes/stops/steers)
                                Actually, I really have to disagree with your objection to leaving a horse tied. Of course not "all day long" (I don't know any good trainers who do that); but it did my 3 yr. old stallion a world of good.

                                Granted, he was not destined to be a dressage horse, but this "cowboy" trainer, who worked with many stallions, would ride the horses, then tie them up for about 1-3 hrs. while he worked others. And he tied them right in the middle of the action (so to speak), so that they saw horses coming and going all the time.

                                For a stallion especially, it taught them that not every horse walking by was going to be bred, and to just CHILL. This paid off in spades over the years when I took Kinor to expos, clinics, vets, etc. He learned that, unless I was asking him to do something, to simply take a chill-pill and relax.

                                Not saying it's the only way to teach that, but it's a valid way.

                                BTW, I live out in the heart of cowboy country and I don't know of ANY cowboys who do "loads & loads of trotting on 15ft circles". Not sure where you got your cowboy from, but maybe eastern cowboys are different .

                                And there is not ONE "dressage" trainer in this area who takes their horses out on the trail. There are some riders who ride dressage who also trail ride, but no actual trainers who do this. No time...and most of them figure the horse will never be out on the trail, so why bother?

                                Jessica Wisdom, in the Seattle area, started one of my mares (and did a wonderful job btw!) does take the horses out 1 day a week, but the "trail" is only about 500 yds. down a dirt side road to the end of the property. You don't even get out of sight of the barn.

                                It's the best she can do, given the lack of open land, but I'd hardily call it a "trail ride."

                                So again, I think it comes down to the quality of the trainer, not really the discipline.

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                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by mbm View Post
                                  for me, what i see at the non dressage based (and when i say dressage i mean those that are good at it and not crank and spankers!) trainers are the following:


                                  tiing a horse for hours to teach them "patience"
                                  loads and loads and LOADS of trotting on the lunge (read 15' rope) on a very tiny circle
                                  a lot of incomprehensible rope snaking, backing, wand waving and other nonesense.
                                  loads of HQ disengagement
                                  i would say almost the whole "world view": of how they handle horses is so very very different...

                                  oh, also leaving horses tied to the hitchin' post ALL DAY LONG .

                                  i could go on.

                                  no thanks. i would rather do it myself i just dont want to have to spend the rest of the horses life dealing with that crap (and yes, i have done that)

                                  the first few months of riding are CRITICAL to the horses development and can make or break a horse.

                                  ps - any GOOD trainer will take the youngster out as soon as it is safe enough (ie goes/stops/steers)
                                  I don' t know where you are looking, but we specialize in young horses and do NONE of that! There is a happy medium out there that treats the animals as the babies they are, yet puts solid basics on them. Mounted and on the ground. Without spending one minute in a round pen, on a walker, and the only longeing done is briefly with saddle and stirrups flapping before introducing the rider. No nonsense. And when done, these horses could move easily into any discipline.
                                  Laurie

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                                  • #37
                                    I have had similar experience as mbm and dressurpferd when horses were sent to cowboys to be broke, with many bad habits needing to be undone. What I didn't like:
                                    1)Lots of round penning, running hard and fast on a small circle for long periods of time with the head straight in the air and often cross cantering or on the wrong lead
                                    2)way overbending the horse in the neck
                                    3)backing up the horse hard and fast, again with head up and back dropped
                                    4) a lot of "non standard" equipment used (tie downs, chain on the bridle going over the nose or behind the poll
                                    5)horse fearful and nervous of being mounted, doesn't stand still at the mounting block

                                    I thought the picture that Dressurpferd posted was lovely and very appropriate for 6 months of training. Great job!
                                    www.saraalberni.com

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                                    • #38
                                      Like lauriep, I think mbm's list is ridiculous. There are other options besides dressage and this kind of "cowboy" which is insulting to decent cowboys everywhere. "Disengaging the hindquarters" is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard and frankly I can't see why on earth you would want a baby to do it. I am not entirely sure what it is but I don't like the sound of my horses disengaging anything. I have known many good horse starters who ride western and do none of the things on her list, who stop horses using their seat, don't overback, bend through the body, use a plain snaffle and otherwise produce lovely animals.

                                      This "dressage" start mbm speaks of sounds awfully like a basic starting from any good horseperson, far from reserved to dressage trainers. The only clearly "dressage"-specific starts I've seen are the crank and spank side rein horrors which are just as bad as a bad Parelli/cowboy start.

                                      I also agree 100% with lauriep that a well-started horse should be prepared to go into any discipline.

                                      I don't know why so many people seem to think that only the people using their favorite kind of tack can ride horses.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I have to say that I'm surprised by some of the tone on here. I think mbm and a couple of you guys have run across some "cowboys" that didn't have much feel. But I am stunned that you guys think that lack of feel is limited to cowboys. I firmly believe you can find a bad trainer that can give a horse bad habits in any discipline. GOOD young horse trainers are worth their weight in gold...I don't think they need to have a designated discipline...I think for 30-90 days being a young horse specialist can be a job in itself. After that first 30-60 days you can specialize. All ours stop off the seat, understand the bit, give to soft pressure, stop turn and go forward...I don't consider that dressage or hunter or western...I consider that "starting". Current guy we go to does them in rope halter (gasp) for the first week so they can learn forward without pulling on their mouths.

                                        For the first 30 days I want my horses to go forward, go forward, go forward. I want them to learn stop and turn. I want them to learn to stand quietly tied while their is action around them. I would love to see them trail ridden and taken out of the ring...cattle, creeks, etc are a bonus. I am confused why it would be a bad thing to have a horse learn to stand tied to a fence for a couple hours a day (no not endlessly but long enough to watch the other horses go and get used to the commotion...it's been great for ours). The groundwork of moving the front and hind ends, disengagement, etc all transfers over when you get on...why not teach a horse he can move his parts and pieces and loosen his back before the rider gets on? Why would that be a bad thing?

                                        We currently send our horses to a "cowboy" type place and they're great...Cam Reeves starts tons of the dressage horses/english horses/track horses in the area and has done a bunch of ours and does a super job(and is a little more of a cowboy-type with the best hands you've ever seen). Jessica Wisdom does a great job too (she actually is a dressage person too AND capable of doing a nice job on a young one.)

                                        And fordtraktor...basically they do when the disengage the hind end is ask the horse to step under itself behind...when I go to ask for a leg yield the horse has already learned that it can cross over and step under itself pretty easily. Nothing really shocking or villian-esque about it.

                                        Bottom line-proof is in the product...our young horses (4yos) that did school last year are showing (and winning) this year with junior riding in the meter jumpers and another in training level dressage at age 5...neither longed at a their shows...ammies/juniors just get on and ride down to warm up. Horses are forward, unafraid and have learned to trust their riders when they see something they don't understand.

                                        Some people have the feel for young ones...those are the folks to seek out!!!
                                        Andrea Clibborn-Anderson
                                        www.crestlinefarm.com
                                        Home of Pinto Dutch Warmblood Palladio

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post

                                          I don't know why so many people seem to think that only the people using their favorite kind of tack can ride horses.
                                          I don't think anyone here is saying that. I think what MBM is trying to say, and I agree with her, is that if you have a youngster that is headed towards a particular discipline, you should have a young horse trainer with a background in that particular discipline start them. I wouldn't want a cowboy starting my dressage horses and I wouldn't want a dressage rider starting my western pleasure or reining horse. There are some pretty fundamental differences in the way horses in different disciplines are expected to carry themselves and respond to the aids. For example, a western pleasure horse is supposed to carry itself in a frame with no contact/loop in the reins. Unlike a dressage horse, they are taught to avoid/go behind the bit. Also, most western/cowboy trainers teach the horse to yield from the leg while taking the other leg completely off. That is opposite to how a dressage horse does lateral work. I would like my young dressage horses to be taught the dressage way right from the beginning, so there is no confusion and the rules don't change when they come home from the cowboy.
                                          www.saraalberni.com

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