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German thoroughbred mare family

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  • German thoroughbred mare family

    I'd like to hear from Germans about a particular Thoroughbred line of mares who have produced TB sons who were used in WB breeding for generations. There are also quite a few KWPN horses with this line.

    The family seems to have started with a 1936 mare named Walburga. Her 1943 daughter Waldrun produced sons and daughters and descendants who were/are quite good race horses in Germany (one of them won the German Derby this year), but it seems that for four or five generations her female descendants produced TB stallions that were used for WB breeding in Germany. Waidmannsdank and Waidsmannheil come from Waldrun as does Wiesenklee in later generations. Waldrun's daughter Windstille was bred to Neckar over and over, and it was a very productive cross. I can't remember right offhand the other TB stallions in Warmblood breeding who derive from Waldrun in tail female, but the males show up over and over again in all flavors of WB.

    What I want to know is whether the Walburga/Waldrun line of TB mares has made any impression on German sport horse breeders? I know that German breeding doesn't favor the use of TB mares, but you'd think that with generation after generation of useful stallions coming from this one family, notice would have been taken of the superior quality for sport of horses from these mares.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Jul. 26, 2011, 09:33 AM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

  • #2
    Actually a freind of mine owns (owned ?) a mare called Wienerin. Has has a daughter of her for sale now. And breeds with that line race horses.
    Wienerin is out of Waldtreiben out of Waldjagd out of Windstille out of Waldrun !
    The pedigree of that daughter for sale is Next Desert - Shepard - Kaiseradler.
    I testrode her and she has a very good trot round and from behind. Very nice walk. Has a good frame and is long legged. I kind of like her and told various friends about her. Everyone very interested especially as she is with her breeding realted to a lot of those stallions used in Hanoverian WB breeding (The sires in the line are also realted to stallions in WB breeding).
    She is for sale against offer - so I still hope I can place her in a WB home.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
    May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto


    • #3
      Vineyridge, this is a very famous mare family in warmblood breeding, with an excellent reputation of producing riding horses for all purposes and disciplines in a very consistent manner. Hanover had its share of sires with those you already mentioned and other breeds that profited quite a bit were Westfalia, Oldenburg and the Trakehners. I guess att his point in time De Niro would be the most famous Hanoverian stallion with W blood up close (he's a Donnerhall - Akzent II - Wiesenbaum xx).
      Wiesenbaum's maternal half brother Wiesenklee xx (by Chief xx instead of Neckar xx) was the sire of two important stallions - Elan xx and Caramel xx, the latter sire of the great Heraldik xx.
      Up until a few years ago, Waldstar xx was still actively breeding (he's a Athenagoras xx - Neckar xx - Avanti xx from that Windstille mare you mention). Very good event horse sire. Then of course, the Trakehner breed tremendously profited from Windwurf xx, who was a champion TB sire (also over hurdles) and produced no less than 4 approved TB sons for the Trakehner (and other) breeds. This includes the three very close relatives and outstanding sport horse producers Noble Roi xx, Nouveau Roi xx and New Wonder xx.


      • Original Poster

        Heraldik's tail male grandsire was Wiesenklee out of the mare Wiesenblute out of Windstille.

        This is just an amazing TB mare family for crossing into WBs. Since the males carry their dam's X chromosome and pass them on to their daughters, it's entirely possible that the sport horse quality of the sons comes from the Waldrun family. I've found one Hannoverian mare line directly to Waldrun tail female--Salondame whose daughter Comtess is the dam of Dreamlight Lady.

        One nice thing about the horses going to Waldrun is that they can either go dressage or jumping.

        And I guess I should mention that this family is FF 5-h, which is the same as Dalmary/Rough Shod. It branched off in the 1850s, but it's still the same DNA. Right now, many European TBs come from Sadler's Wells who is a direct descendant of Rough Shod, as is Thatch.
        Last edited by vineyridge; Jul. 26, 2011, 09:32 AM.
        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
        Thread killer Extraordinaire


        • #5

          This boy has rough shod up close-- I thought he had an interesting pedigree but he has been very picked apart conformation wise --


          • #6
            Did I tell you I've just started Penelope for her new owners. 2 crosses of Rough Shod through Sadlers Wells and Docksider. Or maybe it's the 2 crosses of full brothers of Kris and Diesis but she is one tough cookie. When she gets to the races I think she might be something special but right now it's a battle of who is the more clever! LOL! Have to say the most balanced and super moving TB I've had through my place.

            Viney, can you tell me more about this line in terms of family that has maybe branched off to NH. I've only just started going through the Tatts August catalog to see if I find anything interesting.

            Thanks for this as it's going in the file!

            COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

            "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.


            • Original Poster

              Twenty years ago, Germany had a very active jumps racing circuit, with some tracks having one or two hurdle races a day. But in the past two decades, the number of jumps races has dwindled to the point that Germany now has somewhere between 30 and 50 total per year.

              I'm sure that the Waldruns produced jumping racehorses when there were races for them; and I know one was exported to Ireland a few years back--IIRC, it was Westfalen or her daughter, but I think the produce was re-exported to Germany, and so was the mare.

              The Waldrun family is very, very German; I'm not sure how much international impact it has had at all towards the West. Eastern Europe has a presence. I did find that one of this year's favorites for the Velka Pardubicka is a horse named Lirain, and he has two Waldrun males on the bottom. Waidwerk (Neckar x Windstille) and Wiesenklee (Chief x Wiesenblute (Windstille).

              I'll do some digging and see what I can find. I will say, after looking at some of the pedigrees of entrants for this year's Velka that some of the "best" old lines of US racers have ended up in Poland breeding for this 5800 meter cross country steeplechase. The Poles and Czechs seem to have developed almost a formula for breeding chasers--the same horses appear close up over and over and over.
              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
              Thread killer Extraordinaire


              • #8
                Thanks Viney.

                Didn't even get near my catalog last night. I don't know what's happened but I seem to have a training barn again. LOL!

                One thing about the Germans that kind of helps with pedigree research is naming the horses with the same letter as they do with warmbloods. So it helps when the W comes up.

                COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

                "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.


                • #9
                  Oh have to add - this year's german / Hamburg Derby winner (most prestigious german 3yo race) is called Waldpark (and goes back to Windstille aswell), which makes the line even more interesting.
                  This make the above mentioned mare also quite interesting for TB breeding, but I still want to pplace her in WB breeding. If I would not have this year 3 mares in my breeding program, I would immediatly take her - sigh ...
                  I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                  2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                  May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto


                  • #10
                    can you get Heraldik xx frozen?
                    Hickstead 1996-2011 Godspeed
                    " Hickstead is simply the best and He lives forever in our hearts"
                    Akasha 1992-2012 - I will always love you sweet girl.


                    • #11
                      As far As i Know not anymore
                      I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
                      2017: March: Filly by Lissaro - SPS Don Frederico - SPS Prince Thatch
                      May: Finnigan - Sandro Hit - SPS Rouletto